HTs on Global/Economy

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Revision as of 14:27, 14 July 2008 by EchoMan (talk | contribs)

Keywords: (Economy), (Training)

By: HT-Hasse ? as reply to ?
To: ? ?
Actually the total ammount of money is constantly increasing.

thats not surprising given the user base is constantly growing too.... how about the money per team?

That is increasing too.

I'm curious to know if you know how much the total amount of money should increase every season in order to keep up with the training? Do you have well defined formulas for that relation?

Since it is not possible to predict influx of new users etc that is not possible. Furthermore it depends on what and how people train.

Instead economy is constantly monitored.

Keywords: (Economy), (Global economy)

By: HT-Tjecken 2249571.1 as reply to -
To: All 28-12-2004, at 14:32
I just posted an answer concerning the economical situation today in the Swedish conference, but I think this info could be out of global interest too.

The global economy is feeling very good these days, we have a really nice inflation (which has been going on for the whole season). Higher attendence income and more cupmathes have managed to increase the total amount of money, and have speed up the economy again. The economy will also get some more speed because of the increased price bonus money later this season. Fact is that this speed maybe is a little too high, but as there are increased costs (arena) next season and we've been experiencing some hard economical times lately we'll not do anything about it. At least not now.

Keywords: (Economy), (Global economy) (Inflation), (Deflation)

By: HT-Tjecken 2249571.45 as reply to 2249571.38
To: Noahito 28-12-2004, at 16:25
Your twisting my words a bit...

Two seasons ago: Huge inflation which crashed Last season: Deflation (or more or less +/- 0 in fact) This season: Inflation

If the total amount of money are increasing, tranfer prices will most likely after some time also start to increase. The opposite happens when it's a deflation, less money in the game will eventually make the transfer prices go down.

Keywords: (Economy), (Global economy)

By: HT-Tjecken 2249571.63 as reply to 2249571.50
To: Noahito 28-12-2004, at 16:57
But I'm not talking about transfer prices, I'm talking about the global economy (sum of cash (and income and expenses)). And btw, new members are taking into consideration in the figures.

But as I mentioned, the transfer market also follows the state of the global economy. Not by a sudden reaction, but the history shows the transfer prices evaluation slowly follows and adopts to the state of the global economy.

Keywords: (Economy), (Inflation), (Deflation)

By: HT-Tjecken ? as reply to ?
To: koendb ?
I'm fully aware that the word I use here (inflation) is not utterly correct. But it's not completely wrong either. I guess you got what I was referring to too?

Keywords: (Economy), (Secondary skills)

By: HT-Hasse 2249571.95 as reply to 2249571.92
To: badla 28-12-2004, at 17:56
Let's say you train passing, you can train 14-15 players in passing. After some seasons, won't it just give the same amount of raise in wage as you would have just trained 4 wingers or 6 playmakers?

The point is that you should perhaps consider not to train the same thing "some seasons".

Keywords: (Economy), (Team building)

By: HT-Hasse 2249571.101 as reply to 2249571.99
To: saheki 28-12-2004, at 18:17
So you mean, I should have daytraded, I should have stopped aiding the National Teams

No, I mean you should train players in the way you get the most out of his wages, which means you should not train them in one and the same skill season after season.

I also mean you should build a team that is good enough to win your league, not 2 times as good as needed.

When it comes to national team players, well I would never consider training the kind of players most national team coaches seem to prefer. I train players for my team foremost, not for the national teams.

And BTW - I am in the top division too.

Keywords: (Economy), (Inflation), (Team building)

By: HT-Hasse 2249571.109 as reply to 2249571.100
To: spekkie 28-12-2004, at 18:32
Exactly! Inflation is influenced by the money supply and by the productivity of the economy. HTs can easily influence the former but it is not clear to me how they limit the ever improving skills of the players.

You really hit the spot here without knowing it. Because this is how most people think. Like someone wrote in an excellent post a bit above people focus too much on how things used to be instead of thinking about how they can adapt to the present situation.

You wrote "it is not clear to me how they limit the ever improving skills of the players". Well, the answer to that is very simple; by making players who are trained to insane levels in one skill very expensive to keep.

Change after change in the last few seasons have aimed to encourage people to train versatile players who are good in several useful skills rather that ridiculously extreme in one single skill. Still people insist on training players to divine ++ levels. Well, if you fail to get the message sent by the news in the game then don't blame the game if things don't exactly work out the way you hope them to.

The successful manager is the one who can combine old knowledge gathered by others with own inventive thinking and sharp decisions based on recent events. The user who bases his game on the numerous how-to guides around will never be a top-class manager at a competitive level.

Keywords: (Economy), (Training players)

By: HT-Hasse 2249571.195 as reply to 2249571.186
To: Mandrake 28-12-2004, at 22:35
Just as much as I care for any other SE.

Well, I interpret that as you don't and if that is the case you have certainly missed an important part of Hattrick strategy.

As I said, even though you found it ridiculous, its like caring about defence for forwards so one can play pressing. Both add nothing to team ratings but some to a tactical skill.

So what are you more interested in - winning or team ratings? Carefully building a team with a good selection of special skills can considerably increase your results. SE goals are not about luck in the long run.

I believe having a forward with divine scoring gives me better general attack ratings than a supernatural with supernatural passing, even though they take quite a similar time to train.

Well that might be right, though I am not dead certain. But I would definitely choose an extra-terrestrial/supernatural in front of a divine scorer with nothing else.

Of course, better players need better wages: but the BEST players were affordable by the BEST teams.

Well, your interpretation of what the best player is is simply wrong for several positions.

I think the current wage rate for 1 high skilled player is exaggerated and crazy. Just look at Carey.

The only thing insane about Carey is to train him to that level, which BTW is something his owner has been very well aware of for lots of seasons. He just did it because he thinks it is fun.

Keywords: (Economy), (Weight of secondary skills)

By: HT-Hasse 2249571.237 as reply to 2249571.233
To: shinzui 29-12-2004, at 00:07
I think the weights for secondaries need to be increased to make it more practical for combo training.

What would be the point if people in the conferences still claim "It is estimate that for the striker position 1 level of scoring is equal to 4 levels of passing." or "the game engine does not treat a world class scoring/excellent passing striker as equal to a titanic scoring/wretched passing striker" without having well-founded ground for statements like them even if they are still not correct?

Keywords: (Economy), (Secondary skills)

By: HT-Hasse 2249571.256 as reply to 2249571.244
To: svinefar 29-12-2004, at 00:56
Why do we even have this conversation about secondaries when we are discussing economics?

Because they go together. A big reason many (mainly top) clubs have a hard time with economy is because their teams are built the wrong way.

Do you think that you have reacted fast enough to the clear signs of deflation?

I would rather say that we perhaps did not react fast enough to the massively overheated economy we had a couple of seasons back. That situation was not healthy, while economy as a whole is quite ok nowadays.

Keywords: (Economy)

By: HT-Hasse 2249571.378 as reply to 2249571.375
To: shinzui 29-12-2004, at 20:20
The biggest problem I see with the game currently is that the HTs have created a situation where hardly anybody wants to strive to reach the highest division in their country. Because you have insured that any team that reaches the highest division will flirt with bankruptcy.

Sorry, but you have either not understood much of what I have answered you or you have simply ignored it. Lots of your comments are based on totally false presumptions. If you continue to stubbornly insist that the system is wrong rather than adapting to it and build your team accordingly, yes then you will probably go bankrupt or fall through the system. If you however choose to be a bit more open to the fact that it is perhaps you who are doing things the wrong way you will probably not. Banging your head against the wall might feel easier to accept on a psychological level, but it won't get you anywhere.

I am not saying that you are stupid. It took me quite a while to get the message too, and then I still had the advantage of closer proximity to the persons who engineered the system. But in the end it all comes down to the fact that those who can interpret and adapt to the situation will master the situation, while those who do not will fail. A large proportion of the latter will probably blame the game, because it lies in the nature of the human mind to try to find explanations outside our own actions to things that go wrong.

Keywords: (Economy), (Transfer market)

By: HT-Tjecken 2942625.136 as reply to 2942625.125
To: svinefar 22-04-2005, at 10:01
The HT’s have told us: We aim at a steady inflation

Yes, we do (and are). But just as one_to7 says, we generally mean a steady inflation to the amount of money in the game (per team), not on player prices.

birne74 and Ratsia have also said something really important in this thread; why we can't measure whether it's an inflation by just comparing prices for magnificent midfielders (for example).

Anyways, some figures (pure fresh ones) will maybe shed a little more light on this current situation: The underlying economy flushes. We have an inflation in the game (see definition above) and have had so for the last two-three seasons. Last season there was an inflation around 6,5% even though many users built a new arena at the end of the season, and this season we're heading towards an even bigger inflation. It might in fact be time to cool things down a little bit soon (as always, if we will do anything with the economy affecting teams directly, we will announce it on MyHT well in advance).

Further more, the sponsors are giving around 4% more money to the teams this season (compared to last season) and the wages have increased by around 12%. But if we talk pure money, what teams have lost in increased wages they have (almost) taken back in more sponsor money. In addition to that we have the spectator income which has increased by around 20%, and if we talk pure money close to 3x wages increase.

Enough said about the underlying economy, now some words about the transfer market. The transfer market is meant to be a free open market (well, as free and as open as it can get in Hattrick), where supply and demand set price. We (HT) will try (and have always tried) to affect the transfer market as little as possible. Prices have been falling for a while (not much, or even not at all, this last season), true - but as the underlying economy flushes you'll have to seek the answer elsewhere than there. Some parts of the answer may come from game design decisions, some parts of the answer may come from the capability to adopt to the game and some parts of the answer are maybe hidden in the dark.

Keywords: (Economy), (Top Scorer Money), (Seasonal Awards)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.7 as reply to 7831771.6
To: Everyone 08-01-2007, at 15:22
Reply to (7831762.9)

Do you believe that the current seasonal awards are adequate or do you plan to increase the amounts received by the teams successful in the leagues?

If we start with the top scorer money, that money is only meant to be symbolic because of nature of scoring (it's not really skill related as you know). So top scorer money will remain to be a symbolic sum, just for the fun of it.

The seasonal awards are something else, which of course can (and from time to time should) be discussed in the (HT) team. It's of course also important to look at the global economy so you don't add too much money, such things have to be taken into consideration. Right now I think the seasonal awards are adequate, especially if you look on how much you get from each penny on the transfer market these days. But if we choose to increase any of the seasonal awards I think the promotion money should be my choice.

Keywords: (Economy), (Long Term), (Player Wages)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.22 as reply to 7831771.20
To: Everyone 11.01.2007, at 17:48
Reply to (7831762.49)

I'm just wondering about the economy in ht. what is the long term goal of it as you see it ? Because as is right now , training isn't very productive because you buy expensive and beyond , let's say, extraterestrial , you'll sell very cheap because of the wages. So... are you planning to use this to limit the old teams, instead of reseting every thing and so that it would be a fair competition ?

I sense two questions here, or at least it will be two answers. About the long term goal of the economy first: it is to have a stable background economy where the amount of money per team should be slowly increasing. This to make sure that there always should be room to further development for the general team.

About the wages, yes they do set a barrier for how good a team can get. This is, as you're more or less are saying, to lower the importance of how long you've played the game. If every team would be able to pay the wages for divine players, then team age would be the most important thing and newer teams would never ever be able to catch up and compete with older teams. In the end, that would be a boring game...

So, the wages look like they do for a reason. They're there to make Hattrick a game where team age isn't the most important thing in the long run. The wages also put a soft cap, instead of a hard cap, on team development. So there are not really an "ideal" team (the perfect team you could have got without breaking the hard cap), instead manager skill determine how good you are building the perfect team. Wages set the barrier depending on how much money you make, so it's up to you as a manager to get as much as possible for the money you got. There lies your real challenge.

A lof of users sometimes complain about the high wages etc, but what they forget is that it's the users who are in control over the wages as you produce and choose the kind of players you want.

Keywords: (Economy), (Economy Page), (Improvements)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.50 as reply to 7831771.1
To: Everyone 26.01.2007, at 11:57
Reply to (7926938.147)

I was wondering if there will be worked on improving the club 'economy' page. I'd love to see more detailed information.

  • How much did i spend on putting players for sale?
  • How much income from my friendly?
  • How much income from my cupmatch?
  • How much for my league match?
  • How much pulling a youth player?
  • How much on building my stadium?


Why throw certain costs/revenues on a heap? The info is to be found, but why do we have to plow through our 'club' page or transfer histories etc, when it could be summarized on a single page?

Personally i especially miss a feature that gives an overview of the season so far, and the season as a whole.

Would this be hard to implement?

I don't know how hard (or easy) it would be, but I like both ideas and especially the latter and it doesn't sound that complex to me (even if I don't know much about such stuff). I'll put this on the "possible improvments for the future"-list.

Keywords: (Economy)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.79 as reply to 7831771.20
To: Everyone 07.05.2007, at 18:10
Time for business as usual again after the launch of the youth academy. :)

Reply to (7926938.896)

With the interest on money being eliminated almost all of the economists in the game will soon be fired. With that many economists out of work, is there any chance you can hire one, so you can stop monitoring "background economy" and realise that the game has been devastated by hyperdeflation?

As mentioned in the latest editorial (it wasn't only about the youth academy) we're looking into the economy. Two different projects to analyse the state of things are up and running, one from a strict national economical point of view and another one from more of a gaming point of view.

However, whatever results these analysis come up with we will still need to monitor the background economy as Hattrick is not a "closed system".

Keywords: (Economy)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.83 as reply to 7831771.20
To: Everyone 10.05.2007, at 18:10
Reply to (7926938.975)

What is the rough timeschedule for the economical changes? Next season? In 2 or 3 seasons? Complete unknown?

Are the changes already definite or are you still diskussing various options?

We are still in the middle of discussing and analysing economical and game theories/facts, right now to the extreme. Can't say much more than that right now, as we haven't really made up ur minds in what direction we should go next to reach our goals (and reach them through a fun journey). The economical changes we need will not just affect the economy, they will most likely also affect the game play. And then it's important not to make the game too complex. We must keep the simplicity and still add a lot to the challenge (and at the same time make sure the economy will benefit from it), which is not an easy equation as you understand. :)

But be sure that we will announce major changes to the game long before they become real, I just can't give you any definate date when that information will come. But we rather don't wait that long...

Keywords: (Economy)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.91 as reply to 7831771.1
To: Everyone 13.06.2007, at 18:46
Answer to (8995830.42)

A few months ago, you said that the amount of money available per team was increasing correctly.

Is it still true?

As a fact the money/team is, after many seasons' steady increase, slowly decreasing right now. But as I think you're aware of - we're always keeping an eye on those figures and especially now when we're doing our different economical studies.

Keywords: (Economy)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.93 as reply to 7831771.1
To: Everyone 03.07.2007, at 15:24
Reply to (8995830.145)

Regarding years of official statements like "there is no deflation", and "we are monitoring the background economy and all is good", which are clearly nonsense when faced with facts like this graph : External Link

On a scale from 1 to 10, how embarrassed are you for having fiddled while Rome burned?

Not embarrassed at all, and frankly I see no reason to either even though I can understand that some of you think we should be.

The quote "there is no deflation" was always related to the background economy (money/team), even though the term deflation is not 100% correct to use in this specific case. And the amount of money/team increased steadily for a very, very long time. It's in fact quite recently that the trend started to point in the opposite direction.

The graph you refer to does not show the background economy (incomes/expenses), but it gives a good picture of the price development on the transfer market which one can fairly say hasn't been the funniest thing to look at. But that's a fact we haven't tried to hide at all, nor have we said that much about it.

I hope we never ever see the 'golden days' again where you bought players for ridiculously high prices, but of course I don't think the price level (and trend) today is any better. It should be profitable to train players on monitary basis (it's always profitable to train players as training improves your performance on the pitch), but at the same time it shouldn't set other incomes/costs aside which was the fact some time ago.

Looking back one can always say we should've reacted and started up our economical investigations earlier than what we did. But it's always much easier to look back and find errors when you got all facts in your hand. I wish we would have started them up earlier or done more powerful changes (even though the facts, apart from the transfer price trend, didn't really give that picture at that time), but I'm not embarrassed because we didn't.

Keywords: (Economy)

By: HT-Tjecken 7831771.96 as reply to 7831771.1
To: Everyone 03.07.2007, at 16:26
Reply to (8995830.238)

Do you think God exists?

I'm not allowed to discuss religous matters on the conferences. :)

Is it possible for you to talk openly about how you perceive the transfer market "problem" and possible solutions?

Sure it is, I've done so a little bit in this thread. That said, I think this whole particular matter (the state of the economy) will fit better on editorial space.