HTs on Global/Forum
|From:||HT-Tjecken||(7831771.41) as reply to (7831771.1)|
|To: Everyone||22.1.2007 at 16:43|
|Reply to (7831762.992)
I think a lot of managers spend most of their HT time in the internal forum system. The HT forum system is not so bad, but one thing is really missing, a search function!
Are you thinking about this issue or probably about a new forum system?
We've been thinking about a search function - yes, and I would also love that. The "only" problem with a search function is that it requires a lot of resources, resourses we don't have at the moment. We've also been discussing other solutions like opening up the forums for reading for non Hattrick users, and that way allowing search engines to take care of it. But that's not a non-trivial thing either. But we know it's a very wanted feature, so it's more or less always on our agenda and will remain there in the future too.
|From:||HT-Thomas||(11113785.12) as reply to (11113785.11)|
|To: enigmamz||14.4.2008 at 18:07|
|So the conferences are back online again. Any new stuff to be seen^^?
They likely just erased a lot of the old archive threads that no one could ever want to see.
Namely, the locked ones.
No, just database move and major upgrade.
|From:||HT-Thomas||(11113785.16) as reply to (11113785.14)|
|To: MadsBen||14.4.2008 at 21:30|
|More room for archived threads, which no-one can find, due to the lack of a search function.
Not entirely wrong. More CPU and disk, but but also a solution for eventual future search feature. :)
|From:||HT-Thomas||(11113785.17) as reply to (11113785.13)|
|To: enigmamz||14.4.2008 at 21:32|
|Meaning, what? How will the new upgrade manifest itself?
You won't notice much else than better performance during high loads. Not yet though as we are still running maintenance, but online.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12250256.24) as reply to (12250256.23)|
|To: chrismir||9.12.2008 at 11:17|
|Still no search? I really cannot believe it. Sure, at first it will increase the server load. But if people could find their info by search, the same questions wouldn't be asked for zillion and trillion times.
A search would be great, and I'll look into implementing one later, perhaps as a supporter feature, but I can't promise anything. The people asking frequently tend to not use the search however, even if it is available. I think we'll be stuck with that problem, but perhaps on a slightly smaller scale had we implemented a search feature :)
|From:||HT-Tjecken||(12250256.26) as reply to (12250256.23)|
|To: chrismir||9.12.2008 at 11:21|
|Still no search?
Unfortunately not. We've tried to include one, but it takes way too much load. It's some 178.000.00 posts to search in after all, so it's not that trivial to make it work with our still quite limited resources.
That said, we haven't given up on a search (even if it may not be a 100% free text search) in the future. It's not that we don't fancy having one...
|From:||HT-Johan||(12291248.23) as reply to (12291248.21)|
|To: clawy||19.12.2008 at 11:50|
|The next day the desing was launced, the numbers plumbed. There weren't 100k since the new format was introduced.
The weekly average for the 6 weeks preceding the design change were all around 95000 posts, climbing down from a peak at the start of the season of around 110 000 per week. There is a very clear downward trend both as a season draws to an end, and around holiday time, so the small drop we might extrapolate from the last week could be seasonal, or it could be due to the new design, or a combination of course, but even so it does not look to be any bigger than about 5 %.
In any case, we will keep developing the forums, naturally we want them to be efficient and pleasant to use for everyone.
|From:||HT-Johan||(12291248.27) as reply to (12291248.25)|
|To: Catalyst2950||19.12.2008 at 13:08|
|I still haven't heard an explanation why Hattrick had 60-100% more conference posts two years ago. Compared to some days in December 2006, the number of posts _halved_.
Sadly, HT wasn't very friendly to archive.org, so the entire 2008 is empty and getting data from earlier years is hard or impossible...
And I still can only guess at the reasons. Some is due to lower user numbers, but that would only explain maybe 10 percent. I also don´t think the drop is as big as you describe, last season change we averaged around 120 000 posts for a few weeks and the numbers we presented back then were probably chosen in a similar fashion.
It could also be that users are more active in their early days as users, which would mean higher fporum activity after a period of strong growth, as in 2006, and less now, when numbers has been stable for a long time.
The forums did not change much over that time so I doubt there is a technical reason, other than perhaps less complaints on lagging servers :)
|From:||HT-Johan||(12291248.36) as reply to (12291248.30)|
|To: Lou_Dog||19.12.2008 at 20:08|
|Come now, you can´t use a comparison between 2006 and today for a discussion about the new forum. That drop in forum usage can not possibly have had anything to do with the forum we have used the past week - and you know it. That decline was a fact months ago as I have already showed. You could just as well say those numbers show us that the old conferences caused the usage to drop, they were what we used while the drop happened. Of course the explanation is not that simple.
We want to make the forums the best they can be. If you think the old system was perfect and could not be improved upon, fine, but we don´t see it that way, I think we can arrive at something that is better than the old system and also an improvement on the new. Of course the functionality we had in the old system is still in the toolbox if we need it.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.68) as reply to (12291248.67)|
|To: Bounce||8.1.2009 at 21:52|
|Any response from a HT ?
I'm not in favor of bringing the conferences back, they had their flaws, mainly a steep learning curve. This forum too has its flaws, but I'll be working on getting rid of them over the coming month(s). I will happily take any lists of suggestions of improvements, but I can't promise they will all be implemented!
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.71) as reply to (12291248.70)|
|To: mikan||8.1.2009 at 22:03|
|i don't know if you were using conferences daily for many years... but if you were, you should pretty much know what to do.|
step 1 should be: give us ALL functionality that we had with conferences.
besides, i think that our wish-list is very well explained in many topics... primarily in [new]forum
I seriously doubt Hattricks forum system will be brought back to exactly what it was, and personally (speaking only for myself now) I would oppose such a thing.
It would be great if someone (or perhaps a few people) could compile a list, so I wouldn't have a to read through thousands of posts. Although I have read most of those topics from start to end I've been on vacation and forgot most of what I read *blushes*.
I've only been using Hattricks conferences for about a year, but I've been using forums for 8-9 years. Sometimes up to 12-18 hours/day (luckily not always though ^^).
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.83) as reply to (12291248.82)|
|To: Minervca||9.1.2009 at 16:49|
|The plumetting number of daily posts is probably no stranger to this renewed interest ;)
Actually I created it on my own accord. Besides, knowing that we had (at least in my opinion) very nice discussions with staff and that they gave way for a series of positive changes I figured I would try it on Global as well. The reason I didn't do this earlier was because I wanted things to settle down, and I wanted to give people time to get accustomed to the new forums. Not to mention I was doing something most users think the HTs are doing all days, namely being lazy. I was on Christmas vacation after all :)
The problem that us developers usually have with actively participating in the forums is that it tends to take a lot of our time. I have 8 hours/day that I need to distribute (unless I want to give up additional spare time and work for free). When I get to work in the morning I have a list of things that according to the users should have been done yesterday, add to that the need to actively participate in the forums to gather input on features you have recently written and you soon find yourself working 12-hour shifts instead of 8.
Personally I try to count my forum time as 50% working time, i.e. I do half of it on my spare time since I'm hired to code, not talk in the forums all day. I can understand that some HTs hold back on using the forums as much as I do for that reason, and seeing how I spend some of my working time in the forums, those who don't are probably more productive than me when it comes to delivering code.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.85) as reply to (12291248.84)|
|To: Minerveca||9.1.2009 at 19:15|
|by plumetting numbers of post, I meant by the users at large. I do understand that in your job description it doesn't say be active on the forums, as it might say in Tjecken's job description.
I must say that you have indeed worked your butts off for the release and in the days after. And your Christmas vacation was well earned :). I've seen it first hand. I just find it a bit alarming that the number of daily posts has stagnated at around 85K when we were well above 95K before the release. That's all I meant :)
Yes, I understood as much. I just wanted to tell you a few of the reasons to why we didn't reach out for input on Global earlier.
The post-count has dropped from 160k a few years ago to 80k now, the new design and the coming forum improvements are all measures to increase activity and make the game more enjoyable.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.89) as reply to (12291248.86)|
|To: LukEr||10.1.2009 at 18:23|
|* bring back the sticky / polls for conferences
Bring sticky and polls back? What is that? We have them now, and to my knowledge they work just as in the old design.
* trust the users who were active on the conferences before you changed the design
Fact is the polls that have been made in some league forums (Italian and Polish that I've seen so far) have said that a majority of the people think the new forums are as good as the old ones or better. They are new however, and details need to be fine-tuned, that is what we are about to do.
* accept that the money/time invested in changing the conferences are lost forever
I don't think that me and HT-Jyrg have wasted our time coding them. They need fine-tuning but that's minor compared to the code base the forum stands on right now.
Don't let programmers who are not at least familiar with the old design to change the conferences. If they were Internet forum addicted it's even worst They don't know the smell and feeling of the old format, they think that bbphp looks nice which is totally wrong.
Yes, I happen to like phpBB, but most of all I like custom forums (homebrewn). And yes, I've been very active in other types of forums. Majority of the functionality in the forum is decided by our usability-guys though, which have been deciding how things should work throughout the rest of the site as well.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.105) as reply to (12291248.93)|
|To: LukEr||12.1.2009 at 03:30|
|Don't tell me that you don't know that before, in the old design, the poll in the feds were acting like the sticky threads in the global/national conferences (till they expired)?!
If that's the case I have nothing to say more ...
The old polls were sticky by default, in the new design you can choose whether to make it sticky or not. It's actually an improvement over how it used to work.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.106) as reply to (12291248.94)|
|To: Catalyst2950||12.1.2009 at 03:32|
The default and only sensible way of actually using the forums is through the "New posts" tab. Stickies and polls aren't shown there, unless there are new posts in them.
That was because the old equivalent of new posts (auto-expanded forums) was occupied 30-50% by stickies at all times.
EDIT: The new functionality called "New posts" show just that, new posts. If a sticky or poll doesn't contain any new posts it doesn't belong there.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.107) as reply to (12291248.96)|
|To: Kristoffer_||12.1.2009 at 03:35|
|What about adding the feature of making your own stickies ?
So that every time i klick fx Global (english) fx i could choose up to 3 threads from that forum that would be a sticky...(be put in the top of the threads)
That would be a really great feature...:) hope you see its potential :)
Perhaps as a supporter feature, but isn't that kind of what bookmarked threads are? Maybe they should just be more visible/accessible in the forums. Feel free to make a suggestions in (12372267.1) anyway!
|From:||HT-Josef||(12291248.112) as reply to (12291248.111)|
|To: PanFiluta||12.1.2009 at 12:17|
I want to check the forum of my new league, so I go to II.1 and click on the league forum..... I end up in forum of III.11, my current league.... So I think it wants refresh or what. So I click the arrow and go to II.1 again and then I click to II.2 and back to II.1 and click on the league forum....... bang, I am in II.2 forum...... So I think "lol" and I click on II.4 and then return to II.1 and click on league forum........ yay, I am not suprised to find myself in forum of II.4....
That is because the linking on the league page is wrong I think, not because of the forums :)
|From:||HT-Josef||(12250256.487) as reply to (12250256.459)|
|To: -RedBaron-||28.1.2009 at 13:59|
it's really disappointing that they need so much time to fix such a tiny bug, which everyone can see :(
Potentially dangerous bugs, performance issues and such take precedence in this case. Not to mention that if you have a grand total of 600 bugs in your to-do list then fixing all of them (albeit most of them are small), takes a while.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12250256.490) as reply to (12250256.488)|
|To: Rebeliant||28.1.2009 at 14:13|
|If you release ~100,000 lines of code (.NETified Hattrick site, I'm just guessing how big it is) naturally you are bound to have bugs in them, unless you test them for years.
I'm down from 550 or 600 to ~6-7 bugs now, by the way. Some of them were duplicates, misunderstandings and suggestions as well.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12250256.689) as reply to (12250256.684)|
|To: Ovidiu||8.2.2009 at 18:28|
|No, I don't think polls should always be visible on the new posts-tab.
Last I talked to HT-Aartspam he didn't like the idea of having fedmods create stickies since it would mean there would potentially be a lot of unused threads in the system not going into the archives. A fedmod could for instance spam sticky threads that would never be moved to the archive. On the other hand you could limit it to 1-3 stickies per federation at any one time. I'm neutral in this matter, it doesn't matter much to me.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.1) as reply to (?)|
|To: Everyone||3.2.2009 at 17:34|
|A set of updates for the forum are coming right up, err, has arrived! We've tried taking in input in the forums and working on the flaws in the forum.
The sudden release of the forum changes was caused by an issue with bringing part of our code "live", in the end we had to bring all changes live. For me to roll-back all changes I had made the past few weeks, manually, would take several days and kill a lot of time that I could have spent on making things better.
If you experience any issues, please try emptying your browser cache or simply clicking F5 before reporting them, it might be caused by old CSS (stylesheets) stored on your computer.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.19) as reply to (12500258.15)|
|To: ---Jibe---||3.2.2009 at 18:41|
I think that these changes are a great improvement! Well done. The only thing I don't like about it are the doublelined headers. Is there anything to get the break out of there?
The message headers and the "new posts" message selection is currently being discussed in Stage. We might as well discuss those issues here as well now that we released the forums. Feel free to come with any suggestions on how to solve either in a prettier way.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.28) as reply to (12500258.25)|
|To: Bizkeks||3.2.2009 at 19:38|
How about a user post count? But one that doesn't show up directly when posting, otherwise there'd be a lot of spamming. Or a kharma system similar to the one on PHPbb-based forums?
We discussed it and came to the conclusion that showing the post count can become a false indicator of experience (even showing an abstract representation of the post count as a "level" or such). A user with many posts might not be experienced, while a user with few posts might be. It could be taken the wrong way and it would encourage spam to reach the higher levels.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.33) as reply to (12500258.32)|
|To: Bizkeks||3.2.2009 at 19:50|
Fair enough. :)
Oh, and one more thing. You should definitely keep the look of these avatars, they really make you feel like you're part of a community. Much better than user-uploaded seizure-inducing .gifs and images of scantily clad models. Being able to customize them and choose from a variety of facial templates would probably be the final straw convincing me to renew my Supporter package.
I'm glad you like them. You will most likely be able to customize your manager avatar in the future :)
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.61) as reply to (12500258.54)|
|To: pingus||3.2.2009 at 21:10|
looks better, Thanks!
At any time will there be a search function in the forums?
With the database software we have at hand, and with the enormous amount of posts and threads to scan (we are the ~4th biggest forum in the world) it's not possible to search the forums in an efficient manner. With expensive new software and a few days of devtime it should be possible, but that's a project for the future (and most likely a supporter feature).
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.75) as reply to (12500258.70)|
|To: EchoMan||3.2.2009 at 23:10|
|- It is not very obvious that you have to use the scroll wheel in the message header to find out who the message is in answer to. How does that work for users w/o a scroll wheel mouse?
Try refreshing your browser cache by clicking the F5 key. If that doesn't help then please tell me which browser you are using and I will take a closer look at it.
- I have had issues with the forum all day. It has changed its behaviour several times. Is this quote : [...] ... not valid anymore?
It is still the case. The reason we released all code today was due to a specific issue with moving parts of our stage code to our live servers (it basically forced us to spend many hours on workarounds or releasing everything). We thought that since the things on Stage have at least been tested for a while it should be decently safe to release them, and we didn't want to spent a lot of devtime on something that would only be a temporary fix preventing live users from seeing stage features.
Will it happen again? Probably, but it shouldn't happen often.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.77) as reply to (12500258.72)|
|To: Lou_Dog||3.2.2009 at 23:12|
With expensive new software and a few days of devtime it should be possible, but that's a project for the future (and most likely a supporter feature).
Please note to think about it carefully. Not everything which sounds plausibly indeed is: It could have massive community drawbacks you can´t even imagine. Easy example: We easy could expect a standard reply in newbie conference something like "RTFM or use the conference search". I don´t think you (or anyone wants that). I assume you wrote this without considering immediate actions so i will not go deeper into this issue...
Good work with v1.1!
I think the PROs outweigh the CONs by far in terms of a search feature, and if its limited to supporters (which it most likely will be), your example wouldn't be plausible since most new users wouldn't have access to the search feature. But there will be a while before we have that feature, so we have plenty of time to work on the details in the meanwhile.
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.317) as reply to (12500258.316)|
|To: Sporti69||10.2.2009 at 13:39|
What kind of database do we use to store hundreds of millions of entries?
I am just talking about the forum data. Is that 1 table/topic or all divided in (limited entry) tables. (5 tables of 40 millions records)
Interested because I am working on a new big forum...
Well, I am a little limited in talking about our technical solutions. You could do with one single table for forums, threads and post respectively. Back when the forum was created it wasn't as easy since the tools provided weren't as efficient, so it ended up being split in two; an archive part with older and less frequently used data, and a part with the active data (that way we seldom have to search the brutal volumes of threads and messages in the archive).
|From:||HT-Josef||(12500258.327) as reply to (12500258.321)|
|To: Sporti69||10.2.2009 at 14:08|
|Of course I understand that analysis and technical backbone is restricted to board and development.
What you tell me is that a database system (examples: oracle, mysql, access) is, in combo with a good server, fast enough to process queries in a second (or 2). Even if the table contains 100 millions record like so:
|From:||HT-Josef||(12584641.1) as reply to (?)|
|To: Everyone||24.2.2009 at 10:57|
|A new set of changes coming up, please hit F5 in your browser in order to refresh your browser cache if you experience any problems. These are the changes that came after the big Forum v1.1 release, I'll just call it Forum v1.2. Some may have already been released earlier, but it was hard to keep track of so many changes so I just pinned them all down.
The changes are going out... just about now :)
|From:||HT-Josef||(12584641.237) as reply to (?)|
|To: Everyone||25.3.2009 at 11:21|
|Here we go:
Added 1 and switched places of 2 and 3, implemented 5-10.
Example of how it will work:
Let's see how it works, shall we?
|From:||HT-Josef||(12584641.387) as reply to (?)|
|To: Everyone||31.3.2009 at 16:54|
|Increased limit of recently viewed threads from 50 to 100, enjoy! \ : ) /|
|From:||HT-Josef||(12584641.388) as reply to (?)|
|To: Everyone||1.4.2009 at 02:15|
|Due to a bug, a lot of people didn't have any forum priority on some of their forums. It wasn't important until now since we neglected forum priorities in the selection of new posts. Now I've fixed it by setting priorities on those that missed it (I simply added on whatever priorities you already had on previous forums).
The order might have changed a little, and I apologized for that, but it shouldn't happen again (and the new posts-tab should be working a lot better with proper forum priorities!).
|From:||HT-Josef||(12584641.389) as reply to (?)|
|To: Everyone||2.4.2009 at 02:10|
|Okay, so in the past few days I've been changing how the "New posts"-tab functions. The initial thought was to keep it simple by picking threads in steps and moving on if there was enough slots left. The priority order was something like this:
Now I've changed it to the following:
The different forum priority levels (1-5, 6-10 etc) can be seen in the forum preferences, when ordering your forums.
The point is to prioritize sticky, poll, messages to me and to include forum priorities which was discarded earlier. The system is using step 7-12 for a better spread of threads (i.e. one forum shouldn't eat all slots), and the 13th step to create a soft limit rather on forum thread slots rather than a hard one. In other words, if you have a single forum with priority 1-5 with posts, you get 40 recent threads from it (given 40 is your setting and given it has 40 threads with unread messages), rather than just 7 slots that is specified in step 7.
A MyHT will be up later during the day. I hope you'll like it!
|From:||HT-Tjecken||(12660179.13) as reply to (12660179.12)|
|To: gucan||18-03-2009 at 11:15|
|At one time you thought of using google to search conferences, which would have to obe public in this case. Was this approach dismissed?
No, it's not been dismissed (and not accpeted either). It's still an option, but no more and no less than that.