HTs on Global/Fans

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Keywords: (Fans), (Crowd formula), (Soft cap)
From: HT-Bjorn (1636437.25) as reply to (1636437.20)
To: unknown 20-08-2004 at 15:57
no answer on where HT stand other than the "formula" for calculating crowds to games has not changed.

If that's the case, how could we answer differently? We can't should say A when it is B, just for the sake of populism, to appease those who say "It is not A, it is B".

It has not changed.

Also, these threads tend to mix a whole bunch of completely different things.

I'll here just comment the complaining about losing supporters, which is what this thread was originally about, until it was hijacked by users who prefer spreading sarcasms about "intelligent fans" (taking things badly out of context while so doing) and complain about their spectator outcome in general.

Losing supporters: The complaints tend to be founded in a complete lack of understanding how the fanclub size relates to what league level you are in. Many people think that just because it worked fine to pile up fanclub members early in their HT career, then it will remain linear like that forever. However, as I've repeatedly tried to get the message through: the size of your fanclub is strongly related to what level you are in.

There is a "balance size" for each division level. If you're doing OK, then you will reach this level and neither lose nor gain supporters a typical week. However, it is possible to be doing "above average" for a while (including using press spokesmen and similar means to boost fans mood). If you manage to maintain this "enhanced" situation for some time, your fanclub size will grow beyond the balance level.

But when your team then screw things up (lose in the cup against a worse team, for instance, or lose 5-0 in an important series match), then so much worse the fall is: You fall from an enhanced state.

Here's an example (hypothetical, and with dummy values NOT taken from the actual formula): Let's say a certain division has a balance level of 2000 fans. your team has 1900. For some time your team starts doing well and the fans stay happy. You will reach 2000 at an "accelerated speed" because you are currently below the balance level. However, the further beyond 2000 you go, the harder each new recruitment gets. And when finally, bad luck strikes and things start going wrong with the team, you will lose quite a lot, say lose 100 withing a few weeks, going from the exhanced level of 2200 to 2100.

Does this mean that it is meaningless to gain fans? No. If you stay at 2200 for some time, you will still have had 10% more income (although for a limited time) from the things depending on fanclub than you would have had otherwise. Just because it doesn't last forever, you'll still have gained more money than if you had stayed at 2000 all the time.

So, there are a few things to note: The 10% fanclub gain when you go up to higher division is not the big advantage of promoting. The big advantage is that you'll have a higher balance level. In fact, the 10% you gain may (or may not) bring you above the balance level of the new division. This is what some users have experienced as a drop of fanclub size early in the new season after promoting.

Why do we have a balance level? For starters, this rewards promotion somewhat. It is also an element of realism (yeah-yeah... I know, we have limited the realism on the whole on the matter of spectator sizes, but let's not take up that discussion here, I've answered that elsewhere).

Furthermore, it prevents the early starters from benefiting eternally from "a head start". I mean like this: If supporter gain had been linear, so you keep gaining fans as long as you win, then we could easily have had a situation where the oldest teams had fanclubs of 20.000 rather than 2000 members. So there has to be a limitation, although, we ALWAYS shun strict limits, we've made the limit "soft" (so you can cross it, but only temporary).

The fans want you to take all important matches seriously. The cup is very important to them. Like it or not, but that is the way the spectators of the HT universe thinks about things. Them fans are stubborn crazy little fools, but hey - that's why they fork out the fee to the entrance tickets each week (except when they are too angry with you failing them). When it comes to stubbornness of your fans, you have to take the bad with the good.

Over and out,

Keywords: (fans), (promotion)
From: HT-Hasse (2212022.18) as reply to (2212022.16)
To: septimusjm 20-12-2004, at 17:31
Yes, in theory that would be better. In reality it is not realistic though. For instance, in match 1 of the season the two newly promoted teams meet. Quite often one of them wins, giving them quite a good league position after round 1.

In round 2, however, they are going to play one of the two top ranked teams, perhaps even away. The result would normally be quite a massive loss which then would kill your supporter mood, especially if that team lost to the other top ranked team the week before. Hattrick would count that as a top team (the lousy newly promoted one) lost to a bottom team (in reality probably the best or second best team in the league). The consequences would be absurd to both teams. A very good team would get loads of new supporters for beating a really weak side, and the weak team would lose lots despite losing to a much better team.

As for the cup it has already been made a lot less painful to lose in general

Keywords: (fans), (attendance)
From: HT-Tjecken (2212022.109) as reply to (2212022.95)
To: Loke_ 21-12-2004, at 13:01
I can understand why many users, just like you, want a change about the attendance calculation as the attendance today are a little bit lower than two seasons ago. But (hehe - there had to be a but, right? ;)):

The attendance formula has not changed, as I think you know. But the attendance formula is affected by the supporter mood, and that formula was changed two seasons ago which led to a spectator (and income) loss last season. To this season attendance incomes were raised, and teams today (globally) get more attendance income than they got two seasons ago. Not much more, but slightly more. The fact that we had a huge inflation two seasons ago should also be taken into consideration when discussing this. This means we're back and even past the income figures we had two seasons ago, but I wouldn't worry that much about a new huge inflation as the costs are better optimized than before.

So, the fact is that teams make more money out of spectators today, but still there are complains about the spectators. This, I think, is a pretty normal reaction, as the first thing you see is how many spectators came to watch a game. The overall income from the spectators comes secondly, if one even care to check it out.

Finally some words about the spectators formula. We could of course of course have changed the formula, but we chose to increase attendance money instead. This because the formula is one of those formulas you don't easily change. And as this formula effects the global economy a lot, you better be very sure of what changes it will cause. And in the situation we were in those days we didn't want to risk a huge inflation again nor a bigger deflation. I'm not saying there never will be a change in this formula (and I'm not saying there will be either ;)), but it will in that case require a lot of testing before. And a healthier economical situation. :)

all teams in the bottom of their division, loses supporters, sponsor income and most of all spectator income.

So you think it is strange that losing teams lose fans, sponsors and spectators? I don't. Besides, for some reason you totally "forget" the fact that ticket revenue per ticket was increased this season too. You are also missing that sponsor money is only partially affected by results. The most important factors for sponsors are what level you are in (division) and your spokespersons. I have been losing most of the season but my sponsor money keeps increasing week by week.

Now only an idiot or someone who really don't care about the economic part of the the came, would promote before they're sure that they can be among the top 4

There are a number of statements in this post that implies that you simply do not understand how a lot of the factors work. First of all, you mention sponsor money - the single factor except spokespersons that has the biggest importance for your sponsor money is the league level you are at.

The only things that affect supporter mood in the league is if you win/draw/lose and the number of goals you produce/let in.

Keywords: (fans), (home factor)
From: HT-Hasse (2212022.55) as reply to (2212022.53)
To: ballord 20-12-2004, at 22:16
I'm sorry, but I thought that home factor would also count somehow. Is that wrong?

Yes, you are right. That also plays a part

Keywords: (fans), (total attendance), (biggest crowds)
From: HT-Hasse (2212022.82) as reply to (2212022.61)
To: DrBLooD 21-12-2004, at 00:39
So how about taking a look at more just picture instead of just picking a few matches, carefully selected to prove a non-existent point?

Below is the 20 Swedish series with the highest total attendance so far this season. It hardly supports the theory that the biggest crowds come in division III.

Rank Series Total Crowd 1 A 2,669,254
2 Ib 2,445,256
3 Ia 2,191,579
4 Id 2,084,586
5 IIh 1,810,724
6 IIm 2,056,888
7 IIn 1,703,095
8 IIo 2,053,330
9 IIk 1,578,861
10 IIg 1,833,706
11 IIa 1,764,395
12 IIl 1,852,822
13 Ic 2,009,250
14 IIj 1,820,445
15 IIe 1,792,622
16 IIf 1,716,267
17 IId 1,820,115
18 III.31 1,586,021
19 III.37 1,561,839
20 III.22 1,630,809

Keywords: (fans), (supporter influx)
From: HT-Hasse (2212022.26) as reply to (?)
To: ? ?
I thought the amount of supporters that entered, depend on the team you played against..

That has no effect whatsoever in the league. The only things that affect supporter mood in the league is if you win/draw/lose and the number of goals you produce/let in.

In the cup however, it matters what league level (division) the team you play is in. If I, who play in the top league in Sweden, lose against a team from division VII, my supporters will probably put out a contract on my head. But if I do better and eventually lose to a team from division I, they will only be slightly upset (if I don't go out 9-0 or something like that).

Keywords: (attendance), (derby)
From: HT-Hasse (4818792.15) as reply to (4818792.1)
To: gonzalviyo 7-1-2006 at 00:46
Hi, I've got one doubt I can't remember, did derbies in the past report more people to the stadium than matches between teams of two different regions? Thanks ;)

No. That has never been the case.

Keywords: (attendance), (derby)
From: HT-Hasse (4818792.15) as reply to (4818792.1)
To: gonzalviyo 7-1-2006 at 00:46
Hi, I've got one doubt I can't remember, did derbies in the past report more people to the stadium than matches between teams of two different regions? Thanks ;)

No. That has never been the case.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.70) as reply to (11766543.62)
To: Suli_sul 25.8.2008 at 20:49
Just to make other readers know most of what you say was never said by me the way you write it. I don't know where the problem is, lack of Hebrew reading ability or translation issues but please do not use the information in the above post as if it was written by me.

I am fully agree. I opened a thread about this in the 2nd matchday in the Israeli confrence, where we have the luxury(?) to have a semi-HT, flameron, to answer us. Thing is, he wants proofs to everything we say, but not everything is available, and even then, we "don't understand the system". That's also including not modifying your stadium according to the new changes. But he did said some intersting stuff, which might interest you:

*Against the claim of "Higher division teams earn lower ammount of money" he answered: "Yes, but they still earn more than a low-div team both from crowd and sponsors. They do have to pay more salaries...I would say that some users just don't know how to manage their team financially"

*He gave us numbers last season, where you can see a drop in the top 3 leagues, and a raise in the lower (5 and under) leagues. Div 4 is more or less the same income.

*The system doesn't encourage team to stay too much in their league - for good (not demoting) and for bad (not promoting)

*There's an importance to both your place, and the difference (!) between you and the opponent. The closer, the more fans will come.

* Teams' place is very important factor in determing how many crowd will come

* The first matches has big impact, therefore, their outcome is much more important and critical.

* Season expectation change from round 4 and onward (My team has been in the last places since the first round, and still my fans think I worth top-4, but heck). This change is relatively to the points you could earn.

*He gave us the following factors for the crowd arrival (or mainly - not arriving :P), not in any importance order: Host fanclub members is one of the main parameters. Host fans mood. Weather (of course, if you'll have enough sits with roof, there will come more people on rainy and cloudy weathers). Host place in the league. Difference of the host and the visitor in the league (talking about places) - the higher, the worse. Round - Very important. Visitors fanclub base and mood. In cup matches there's also an effect of the margin between the divs - the more, the merrier.

*Fans mostly affected by the last score, but since the formula is based on accumlative calculation, previous scores also count.

That's all I have (and thought was relevant, I can give you the link for the Hebrew thread, but I doubt any of you will understand :P). Hope I helped you and contributed a little bit to this thread

Just to make other readers know most of what you say was never said by me the way you write it. I don't know where the problem is, lack of Hebrew reading ability or translation issues but please do not use the information in the above post as if it was written by me.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.71) as reply to (11766543.66)
To: Lou_Dog 25.8.2008 at 20:54
* Season expectation change from round 4 and onward (My team has been in the last places since the first round, and still my fans think I worth top-4, but heck). This change is relatively to the points you could earn.

This point was new to me. Could you please check what exactly he said? The rules state season expectation is calculated just once in the beginning of the season...

It is not re-calculated. I said that maybe it should show how fans adapt to the new season performance in their expectations. Today it is shown in the match to match fans exp but not as a title change which might confuse people.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.79) as reply to (11766543.74)
To: anvill72 25.8.2008 at 22:20
Makes. No. Sense. At. All.

There is a reason for that and its quite common users forget that their actions and choices do have impact on the team factors.

The number of spokepersons is important and you forgot you changed their number in between.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.84) as reply to (11766543.82)
To: anvill72 25.8.2008 at 22:56
And so a few less spokespersons trumps a 6-0 away thrashing when the fans expected the other team to have the edge?

Sending love poems is the most extreme fans mood. Even a tiny drop will cause a drop in visual fans mood. When you have a value which is the most extreme any small change will always cause a drop, it’s not something you can avoid. Obviously its optional to make the small drop invisible but it will not make it more logical or less just less apparent. You can say that 6-0 with 9 spokespersons should keep the highest level of fans mood while 2-1 with 10 should not be enough. I see no point in arguing about it as I guess any user will define how it should work in a different way. In any case we are talking about a visuale level but insignificant in any other term. Would you feel better if the sending love poems be hiding small changes around the maximum fans mood level?

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.85) as reply to (11766543.81)
To: Ratsia 25.8.2008 at 23:00
PS. The fans still don't react to walkovers or other extremely weak teams correctly. On 7th round the team placed 2nd in my division had "It will be a close affair" on away field against a team placed 8th with zero points. The team had given one walkover and lost the rest of the matches by 9-10 goals.

Do you have any suggestion how to make it optional for fans to know the other team strength?

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.87) as reply to (11766543.86)
To: Kniff 25.8.2008 at 23:07
the last opponent game results maybe?

It is taken into consideration. The only argument Ratsia has is that it’s too low in effect. Making it higher carries its own problems.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.88) as reply to (11766543.80)
To: FatBoyOs 25.8.2008 at 23:08
I also agree that the Fan behaviour appears wrong.

I am in Div 6, and my friend promoted to 5. Even though his Fans expectation for the season was to struggle, and mine was to Win the Title (again), we both firmly believed that he would have greater attendances (less bots) and a regular increase in Fans, by being in the higher division (Fan base Cap would be higher).

His Fans expectations were correct, he is struggling in 5, but as a result, he is getting lower attendances at home than I am, sitting in 3rd in Div 6.

HT set out to encourage teams to promote, but I am much better off financially staying in 6, than he was promoting to 5. This has to be wrong !

I agree that attendance look down across the board, but you would have thought that those that can make the effort to promote, should be rewarded more than those that don't (or can't).

This is an important claim I want to address.

The system favors teams with lower past performance. It does not mean that 3rd place in 6th division will earn less then a 5th division team in 5th position. It will not guarantee it, that’s for sure. The new system is helping those teams to a certain level but its not a sure thing that you will gain more in ticket revenue if you promote. An example of why it shouldn’t is in the case where a certain team sacrifices long term performance to promote. In that case it should be better if a manager that chooses to build his team to its future challenges, not promoting this season should be in better position. The new system did not make new promoters a winner in any case. He should still be able to compete in its new league.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.92) as reply to (11766543.90)
To: GeissbockHennes 25.8.2008 at 23:23
Do you have any suggestion how to make it optional for fans to know the other team strength?

Use the maximum average match rating of the last competetive games

Both the last suggestions are a bit simplified.

Example: A certain team forgets to field a lineup for one game. Use that info or not?

maybe a solution where closer results like 1:2, 1:3 1:4 have a effect like today and clearer results with a big difference in goals have a none-proportional higher effect.

Gradual effect should be part of the system otherwise it could be manipulated. This is how it works now. You can argue that the response rate is too slow and I might agree to certain level. Yet, all the teams see a fair impact on fans mood due to this while any change that will make single game result more important carry a risk that the next opponent of a team that lost 6-0 on bad luck will see very high fans expectations, etc.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.104) as reply to (11766543.93)
To: GeissbockHennes 26.8.2008 at 07:31
Both the last suggestions are a bit simplified.

Example: A certain team forgets to field a lineup for one game. Use that info or not?

I'd say use it. Maybe not on a linear but on an exponential scale. Let's say you look at the last 10 or so competetive games. If the opponent team doesn't field a lineup for 2-3 games it should not have a big effect but if it's 8-10 games there could be a significant increase in expectations

To a degree it is how it works now. As I said you may say its too weak and takes too long till the fans notice a non competative team but if they will spot such cases faster they should also react faster to actual season performance taking away all the new system goal. I'm not saying the current adaptation rate can not be increased, just saying its not an easy answer what should be this speed. Eventually the problem is quite small with positive effect on users (bot / not active teams giving WO or clear wins) and the fans exp is smaller in effect compared to the actual result the teams get by playing those teams. I see no reason to change the system for that purpose only.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.106) as reply to (11766543.94)
To: jurek_gouveia 26.8.2008 at 07:47
Was the effect of the spokespersons increased?

In the old system, the only visible difference ever observed in fan mood was between 1 and 2 SP. Moreover, the effect of the SP on the fan mood (and consequently the crowd) was one of the least known and less important of all the variables. Can you say that it is still the case? (If ever that was the case)

As i recall, Tjecken only answered about the SP still having an influence on fan mood after several people asked, and even then, had to check. So, how important is it?

The system is working at the same way in regards to spokespersons. Due to the change in the way the system works it might be more sensitive to the number of spokespersons in certain domains then in the past and vice versa in other areas. In any case it is similar enough that you can not really say it’s something to think about if you know the older system. When dealing with the max fans mood I would say that the main difference in the systems is visibility and not the way the system works.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.107) as reply to (11766543.100)
To: Dark_Tiger 26.8.2008 at 07:56
because I dropped down last season my fan mood can't get higher than delirious? That's not funny and means a constant loss of income this season. This punishment is too severe.

I have demoted last season and am in the same position as you. I find my income quite high. Sure, if I was promoting team I would earn more but I still earn a lot of money compared to most my rivals in the league and since my position is better then them in terms of team strength it seems I get too much income. The true thing about the system is that now teams that overspend in higher division and fall to lower division are hurt harder then before, but teams like mine that have good performance in the lower league still have nice income and keep the relative advantage they had, especially if they manage the team in a good way in the higher division before relegating.

Next wednesday I'll play the 2nd team from the highest league in Belgium and they are slight favourites (They have the edge) according to the fans. What do they want from me? They should expect me to get well beaten. A team playing in 5th division shouldn't reach this stage in the cup. But my cuprun had to save my economy.

There are teams from higher divisions that complain that the late cup rounds fans expectations are too high from them. You can see that you and them see the same expectations as wrong, each one wants to have lower expectations from his team. I think the expectations are ok. The issue you need to know is that late cup exit costs very low price, especially for the lower ranked team. You will see when you drop. Even a 5-0 lose will not hurt you much.

It seams like it's best to grow slowly and never aim higher than the fan expectations. This way you can keep pleasing them and keep getting decent crowd income. If you fear you might end up higher, put your focus onto the cup. ;)

To a degree this is the motivation the system gives. Do not overspend as the price of that is huge. Do not wait too long as income is shrinking. As before it is about finding the right balance for your team between team building and short term success.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.109) as reply to (11766543.102)
To: anvill72 26.8.2008 at 08:03
What I still don't understand is how a win which exceeds the fan expectations can cause a drop. Even a teeny weeny titchy one.

Like real life, the PR is important for fans perception.

It makes no sense for a team to be better off in a lower division, even if they can't compete in the higher division. Higher divisions are supposed to earn more money.

I do not agree. Even in real life there are cases like that. There were big clubs in Israel that when demoting to second league had 5x bigger crowds in the second league then team in the top division. You can not simulate real life to 100%. It’s a game and not reality. Find the sense for the game behavior in the gaming logic. You should think why it should be the case for healthy game and not how reality works. I agree that real life resemblance is important for the game but it can’t be the same as real life as no one would play.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.114) as reply to (11766543.110)
To: Catalyst2950 26.8.2008 aat 10:25
If he lost 5-0 in the league with "they have the edge", his fans would go crazy.

If he lost 5-0 in an early cup match with "they have the edge", his fans would go crazy.

Why the difference?

Don't you see early and Late cup exists as different things? This is the difference.

This system isn't working well, to be honest. I've stopped looking at my fans page ever since it caused my first "LOL" reaction. With time, you'll have everyone start ignoring the page, because it doesn't tell them anything useful.

I think you show here why users will always feel such system is not working well. It is because they expect the fans to "read their minds" and expect what they expect. I can only say the system has logic but its a certain logic designed to achieve certain goals while being as best as it can be in simulating real life fans behavior. Obviously a system that will give “good” simulation will be so complex that users will fail to understand it. To a certain degree that is what happening with the new system. It is maybe too complex by being much more close to reality in how fans behave. The old system was simple. Last game good result = good fans mood (but in some cases it failed and you needed a lot of games to recover, but lets leave that a side for now). Last game was a defeat = low fans mood. The new system is more logical but users are still not happy. They now expect a complete reasonable behavior at any circumstance. Some ask to make salary and TSI in the formula (which I think is a bad idea), some ask for faster adaptation to league position (which has its risks). Some think the old system was more logical in simulating real fans.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.120) as reply to (11766543.116)
To: Catalyst2950 26.8.2008 at 12:01
No, I see the fan page.

When fans say they want "X" and "Y" happens, then I expect their reaction to *always* be the same when they want "X" and get "Y", regardless if it's a first round cup exit, or the fourteenth league round loss.

No. There are X and Y which are always the same. However X+Y is then treated differently according to the round in cup / league.

Early league games has lower impact (both for winning and losing).

Cup games are always the same on the positive side (when you win) but are smaller in their negative effect the higher the cup round you exit on. In addition the lower ranked team has another factor which decreases the negative reaction on cup exit which is dependent on the difference between the team and the team that bit it in the league structure.

I think this is really logical that even when fans expect Y and the result is X that they react in a different way.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.130) as reply to (11766543.122)
To: Ratsia 26.8.2008 at 14:25
Please, never implement things like ... without telling us

Yes. I understand its a problem that things happen and you do not know how, but there is a problem with telling everything as well. Originally the idea to give a measure to how the fans will react was considered as well as the impact of cash in the bank but since it becomes too much it was decided to leave it out. I think most fans reactions are really logical and users’ understanding of the system is much higher then some choose to present here. There are some minor cases of problems especially with bot teams or not active teams. Long term it will change as future actions will deal with that, not necessarily by changing the fans system.

The main reason there is so much “noise” on the conferences is that how you simulate human reaction will always trigger controversy especially when you try to do it in a simple way that will also create the right gaming motivation. In addition it does not help when people say the system is not understood or just have no logic in it while presenting extreme cases. Many users agree here that the system is not working properly by presenting their case and how it does not match their thoughts on how fans should react. Then the other user agree and say something else about his case. They all agree but they actually never confront on actual game design issue. This means they would never agree on how fans should react they just agree that they think it should work in a different way.

In any case I will discuss with Niclas (HT-Tjecken) if and how to model the fans rules section to include more info. I am not ruling out several changes to presentation of fans mood changes to allow better Transperancy of how it behaves as well.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.138) as reply to (11766543.137)
To: IceStorm 26.8.2008 at 16:38
So, I can't see how the get out of this vicious cycle. If my next season's expectation are again the highest possible one, then I don't think I will find the motivation again to try to get out of this.

The fans exp for next season will be lower (if not visible level at least invisible). If you will have another season like that they will reduce their exp another time. Eventually you might find them expecting you to be among the top 4 or aiming at the title depending on your performanc in this league in the coming seasons. Already if you promote next season the exp will be quite moderate for second league. The key here is to build your team long term. I think the new system give good managers a door to promote faster on the expense of overspenders.

Maybe something helpful would be to understand how the season's expectations are calculated. Over how many periods? Are there any weights used for the past periods?

It might be optional to explain it better in the rules. It is composed of past performance in each league level taking into consideration not only league level and position but points as well. Last season is the most important factor and each season in your past has lower impact the longer the time since it ended. They adapt quite fast so if you demote (like you did) two seasons in a row and then being on the top of your new division for 2-3 seasons that they will start expecting "aiming to the top" instead of immidiate promotion. If you perform well in the new division it is true that you earn less from other team with the same performance that promoted to the same league but you still earn more then poor performing teams in this league. You might earn even more then a team in 5-6th position in the division above you that some users might think is not ok.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.177) as reply to (11766543.176)
To: DrZeta 31.8.2008 at 21:36
I have to say that I find the new fan system much, much better then the old one. My fans don't go berserk when I´m getting kicked out of the cup as long as I reach a decent round. My opponents fans don't kill me if if they for some reason are low and I don't kill my opponent if I have a low fan mood. I don't get stupid low crowds and I don't get very high crowds.

As with the old system I can almost always guess rather accurately what crowd and income I will get (so it don't seams that complicated mechanisms).

My only concern are that I´m afraid that as I cant promote from my division my supporters might get to demanding if I´m able to stay for a long time in my division. Eventually this might force me to demote even due I don't have to demote, to get lower expectations in the future. Would you say that this is a valid concern or not?

There is no need to be concerned unless you "Beltix" your division. In this case some negative effects are in place probably. It is true that the new comers will have better crowds for the same performance but its not like your crowds are going to decrease to very low crowds in such case.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.183) as reply to (11766543.179)
To: Ratsia 31.8.2008 at 22:48
Do you think that economically wise you will be better by losing the games left considering the fact fans mood is not fully reseted?

Take into consideration that this will improve your future income by a fraction in most cases unless you are going to perform significantly worse in the next season due to the capped nature of the system (there is a maximum fan mood level).

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.186) as reply to (11766543.185)
To: DrZeta 31.8.2008 at 23:18
Yes, I fully understand the scenario but I am quite sure he can not make sure to lose 2-1. Aiming at such result is impossible without being in high risk to gain those points / lose higher. Again, the effect is quite balanced I think and although in some cases you might be able to "trick" the system I honestly think its so hard to do and so marginally profitable in most reasonable scenarios. This scenario was in focus when we built the system and in spite of the partial reset announcement delay it was always planned to come with the new system (which it did as it was done on the first season end).
Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.193) as reply to (11766543.191)
To: Ratsia 1.9.2008 at 09:31
I cannot make it sure to lose 2-1, but already the knowledge that it would be better for me than winning them 0-7 is a problem. I guess that at least I cannot lose anything by winning the matches my a smaller margin, right?

If I decided to lose them on purpose, I probably would play essentially without attack but with strong midfield and relatively high defense. Perhaps add play creatively, which will always hurt my team. That way I can make it very likely that the opponent will not score more than roughly 2 goals, whereas I will not score any. I might get a draw, but losing 1-0 or 2-0 is the most likely result. My fans are not even expecting me to win those matches, so they shouldn't get that angry.

PS. The whole scenario is rather hypothetical, since I am an underdog in both of my away games anyway, though I may win the latter because the opponent possibly cannot MOTS it.

I took your case to see the impact. I really checked it using the numbers but did not went to fine details like exact fan club size. The result shows you will lose more by losing the next game then you can gain by the small effect it will create on next season exp. The loss is enough if we consider the next game income loss only with a moderate loss effect on fans mood. I assumed no income loss due to lower fan mood on the first match next season. If you will lose more then one game this season the impact on next season income will be higher to both sides (negative by having partial reset on fans mood and positive by having even lower fans exp. Yet, it seems you can not improve your situation by losing).

The above does not mean you can not profit from such actions in any scenario but I can say that I’m certain there is no logic in doing such actions unless you know exactly how the system works and you are able to generate exactly the results you want. Even in such case the profit will be really insignificant.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.195) as reply to (11766543.194)
To: Ratsia 1.9.2008 at 11:24
I believe it then means I'm not on the verge of having to take a higher season expectation and thus lower absolute cap in the fan mood even if I did win all of the matches

I'm not sure if this is what you mean but the fans mood season exp is a continues function displayed with denominations and same for the moving cap of fans mood.

since I believe that is the only way the statement could hold (I will probably lose 2 levels of mood for a single home match if I lose with a small margin, whereas a one level lower cap could have meant 6 league matches where I always lost 1 level of mood, plus all the effect on cup income).

The effect of one loss / win on next season exp and by that on the next season fans mood cap is not even close to one level of fans mood. As I said, I checked it and I can not see this motivation to outperform as a future problem unless users decide to do bad things for their team.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.205) as reply to (11766543.198)
To: DrZeta 1.9.2008 at 12:38
I have to say I´m puzzled. First you mention the "Beltix-effect" then you say that it does not mater anyway.

Does that mean that their is no Beltix effect in reality? Or that Ratsias team are already considered a Beltix team by the fan formula?

Or something else?

One loss or win do not change much, but if Ratsia will win his season with 42 points or 28 it will make a significant difference. What I said is that even though this is true it is almost impossible to make profit from underperforming since the loss in cash on the next game will be higher then the future profit.

If you want you can view it like that – the better you perform the harder it gets to make future revenues. Yet, underperformance will generate less cash then performing to your best. What could be said about Ratsia case for example is he could save money and performing worse generating similar profit this season and making it easier to generate profit in the next season. This is why I tend to say that the system is punishing over spending. I used Ratsia case as an example of winning big time a division but I did not check if he was enjoying some luck that enabled him to do that or he really could manage with lower costs to win the title.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.207) as reply to (11766543.206)
To: jacek_BTL 1.9.2008 at 12:51
Does the system look at the absolute numbers, or at the differences? For example, if one team wins the league, has 32 points and 2nd placed team has 24 points, and another team wins the league, also has 32 points, but teams 2nd to 4th have 29-31 points, will fans of both teams (assuming the same outcome of qualifiers for both teams) react in the same way, or will fans of the first team have higher expectations?

What do you think should be the way the system work?


Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.209) as reply to (11766543.208)
To: jacek_BTL 1.9.2008 at 12:59
I think it should look more at the absolute numbers, because they depend on my team's performance. Difference to other teams can depend a lot on the outcome of games between them, which I cannot influence at all.

It works as you expect it to.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.212) as reply to (11766543.211)
To: Ratsia 1.9.2008 at 15:43
Why is it important if there is a bot in a division or if the results against this team is removed?

Edit: Bad phrasing of my question. How do you think a bot team / WA team existence in the division should be handled?

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.214) as reply to (11766543.213)
To: asa79 1.9.2008 at 16:05
I guess if the aboslute points determinate the expetations of the fans for the next season, the bot would rise those points "artificially", since the bot isn't there anymore when the next season starts. So, every team at the league would get higher expectations that it would if there was no bot.

Sure. But this is one sided argument. Aren't there other benefits to teams having bot team in their league?

Lets not make it me and you who discuss this. You can feel free to discuss it among yourself. I will read. What is the way to deal with such teams taking all the effects into consideration?

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.225) as reply to (11766543.224)
To: rookie05 4.9.2008 at 12:14
Hey, one question about the fan system. Why did you keep a tie as a bad result? I think it's rather unlogical, that when you reach a tie as an underdog, when the fans expect loss, their mood decreases. This probably applies to higher levels of fan mood only, but somehow I find it stupid, that overmatching the fans expectation leads to an drop in their mood.

This could happen only if the fans mood is very high. In this case fans mood drop to lower level do not mean that they are unhappy just that they need a bit better result to keep their happiness level so high.

In my view meeting the fans expectation should keep them on the same level

I guess this is a problem of many users. I thought about changing the fans expectations to Sports reporters’ expectations due to this fact as the logic behind the system is that match and season expectations are neutral (according to fans “logic”) while the reaction is a bit “emotional” (so you would get a drop in fans mood even if the result is better then the expectations in case of a loss).

Fans mood is volatile as it was before (but a bit less volatile and a bit more “memory” of previous results). The fans react in a basic negative / positive way to loss / win. The expectations are weaker in their impact than the actual result and hence the above situation in which better then expected result (in case of a loss) might create negative fans mood move. Actually, most losses will create a drop in fans mood and most wins will create an increase in fans mood level. This is not true only on extreme fans mood levels or on extreme match expectations.

They are all ready having a hard time understanding, that the denominations of the seasonal expectations mean close to nothing

Not true at all. This has huge impact over a season. It’s just not that high per match. Even per match the difference between being the favorite and having only the edge may be in average case half a level of fans mood.

… and that fullfilling those isn't enough to keep the fans happy

This is the problem. Fans do react to last results and not to the actual position in the league. I believe even in real life this is the case. The manager is focused on position and long term success and this is why users feel there is something wrong in the fans reaction, it’s just because they expect the fans to be more loyal due to historical success. I believe this is actually the situation in real life as well. In any case I do see this user’s perception as a problem I would like to solve.

But you can't expect that the masses would do the same

I believe this problem will be solved by interface issues rather by changing the system.

Keywords: (New fan system), (fans)
From: flameron (11766543.228) as reply to (11766543.227)
To: Ratsia 4.9.2008 at 14:22
In real life the fans indeed react to the latest results, but probably still make their decisions on whether to attend the matches based on the league position

Like in Hattrick :)

Anyway, you took the main point of what I say by relating to this part. I did not mean to say HT simulate real life in a good or better way using this system. I meant to highlight the fact that a manager and fans in real life have a different perspective on what is the "right" reaction to certain scenario and therefore that the fact in HT users feel the fans are "dumb" might relate to this same bias in the point of view of a manager and a fan.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.25) as reply to (12313243.23)
To: Catalyst2950 24.12.2008 at 12:54
First I think your initial post (and the others you wrote in other threads as well) are a little bit (maybe actually more then a little) exaggerated. The main thing might be a little bit misleading about the fans expectations is that its actually an objective estimations of the game result (based on known parameters which are not the issue of your thread here anyway). The two teams get the exact opposite fans expectations and this is not realistic at all (in real life it is fair to say that the average fans expectations is positive and not 0 as in HT). So in a sense the fans expectation is actually imitating real life sport journalist estimation. In this case it is reasonable that the fans expect actually more from your team and therefore react a bit off then the “fans expectations”.

I do agree with almost all the repliers that real fans have emotional expectations which are above the "logical" expectations which is another way to explain this bias. Overall, as usual, a lot of ways to build such system which imitate real life fans are optional and none will give something that all the users will feel as real life simulation. Its not impossible only from the one reason there is no way to get all the users agreement on how the system should behave. Therefore I see such threads as a sign of the inability of some people to accept the system logic over their own, which I think is a natural scenario in a system with that many users.

Btw, would you prefer instead of fans expectation – reporters expectations?

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.60) as reply to (12313243.59)
To: busawreck 25.12.2008 at 12:56
Yesterday I won my cup match and made it to the quarter finals of the swedish cup. And my fan mood dropped. I feel that in the latter stages of the cup a win should be enough to keep their mood, feels a bit weird that their mood dropped, even though I understand how the mood works.

No system will be perfect in giving all the cases the exact reaction one may expect. We have a system which behave according to its logic and I think most of the critic it got till now is related atually to the effort to make it more logical and therefore a bit more complex to understand. I am not keen therefore to add more small tweaks like you suggest.

The logic behind this fall is that your fans where so happy from the team before and now they are just a little bit less happy (not unhappy) due to having a marginal win in a game expected to be won by a bit higher margin. To sustain your fans at the highest level (top maximum) you just needed a bit better result, thats all.

I do understand your logic though.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.72) as reply to (12313243.70)
To: Nagyzee 25.12.2008 at 20:23
To you and to -Nirk-

I promoted two times in a row to reach div I (too early) and now I already fear how my fan expectations will look like next season in div II again. What I know is that after winning div II my fans' expectation would have been "We belong in the top 4" if remaining there. I hope it won't be higher than "Aim for the title!" next season if I demote back...

You forget your fans do support you better then before in the top division. In addition the effect of promoting and not succeeding in higher division is not huge and is quite in line with staying low and succeeding in terms of how the long term expectations work.

Basically the system is there to support new promoting teams and to lower the ability to enjoy the power of being successful on the same division for long period of times.

I think as -Nirk- showed there is a penalty on crowd average if you demote and succeed later, so its indeed harder to demote to be successful and benefit from that. The negative spiral hits teams that promote too high and overspend in the process. I think that a team that build it self gradually is not in any problem if demoted after promotion. In addition you need to play several seasons with some success in higher division to have the demotion be a negative effect.

One thing might not work well is the -10% fans lose. Even before the change in fans mood there was a situation in which new promoters had by far more fans then the teams in the division. This was good to a degree as it gave higher crowds to new teams in the division, but not enough. The new system now does it well enough and the two mechanisms together might take it too far.

I must say that I am not 100% sure it is too far. My team, which played for many seasons in the top division, demoted and is in the top of the second league for few seasons. While my fans club does not grow I do have nice income from crowd and am able to train and make a profit. This is mainly since I never spent to achieve in the higher division so I was able to successfully manage my team after the demotion. I think that you are punished if you spend your resources in the higher division and then demote.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.77) as reply to (12313243.75)
To: GunterDroopy 25.12.2008 at 22:29
The negative spiral hits teams that promote too high and overspend in the process.

In a truely competetive country that is on average the only way to promote.

I do not agree. If you said something like: "In a truly competitive country that is on average the faster way to promote"

I would agree completely.

Keywords: (Success), (Overspending)
From: flameron (12313243.78) as reply to (12313243.73)
To: NickMan 25.12.2008 at 22:37
It have one and only purpose - to punish the success!

Never said that. I wonder why you feel like that? I do agree that if you wasted your resources for success you will get a painful penalty from the system compared to the old one, but any view of any system like the one in HT as if its a system that have only one way to interact with the user is false. I feel there is continuous range in which each manager position his team. If you chose the extreme path the price might be very painful, but if you didn't the price of mistake will be smaller. The more extreme your approach to success is the harder the penalty. If you build your way to the top there is no penalty, the challenge to keep position is there but any team going up will face the same challenge if you do not burn your resources to keep on top.

That's why we don't have fair system. Not that it is difficult to have.

First the definition of fair is really hard. My bet you will find it quite hard to have most users agree on any definition. Its quite clear I (and the other readers) can not know what is fair in your eyes unless you state it (from the same reason).

I will be happy to hear your thoughts though, and others. Assuming you actually want to discuss it of course.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.85) as reply to (12313243.83)
To: NickMan 26.12.2008 at 10:30
First, thanks for this good post and the effort you put writing it.

I think we mostly agree. I will highlight some points I think make the difference between us.

Fact1: The successful team have smaller fanclub size. In a fair system, all clubs have possibility to reach equal fanclub size. Playing dumb will result in bigger fanclub size.

I do not agree here. In my eyes fair is related to the rules being equal to all the users. I do agree that according to the rules certain game envioronment is created accordingly game strategies develop. Those might be really wierd and unhealthy to the game, absurd some times, not logical in others, but as long as they are equal to all they are fair. I guess this is what you mean as well, but you do not explain where is the problem (to a degree I do agree there is a problem there, but without discussing the actual game design issue we can not agree).

Fact2: The successful team have lower attendance, if we take as basis its fanclub size. In a fair system, all clubs will have similar attendance in similar situation. Playing dumb will result in higher attendance.

The less successful teams will face the problem if they continue to succeed and become as the other team. It is not as if in total being more successsful is less profitable. Its true that two teams having the same success in certain season will have different incomes according to the past success. But overall, the more successful had more income.

Fact3: The successful team have lower income from the same attendance, compared to a team that play/is managed dumb. In a fair system, the income will be the same.

I hope my previous answer explains that as well. If you look at certain point the past more successful team earn less, but it may be that this team is managed dumb as he burned all his cash for the previous success while the other team did not. In that case the more successful team was managed badly.

The role of a fair system is to give equal possibilities

They are. For each team the rules are the same.

A strictly business system, as it is more likely to keep what you once have (supporter for example), than to drop it (the power of the habit).

Believe me no business decision is part of this but I see why you feel like it. Any way this is a matter of game design. I think that being on the top should come with higher price for mistakes. So yes, when you are on top doing a mistake has higher price.

To discuss what? I'm perfectly aware why we have such fan system.

There is a point. We do read and listen and you effect more then you think. But, it must come with deep level of discussion. Shouting is not enough though. In addition the time it takes to do certain things is longer then you think from several reasons, but I guess no matter how I explain those I will only get hammered, so I will save myself the pleasure.

a) Positive reaction: multiplied by 0.5 to 2.0
b) Negative reaction: multiplied by 0.5 to 2.0

The highest season expectation will have coefficients (0.5; 2.0)
The lowest season expectation will have coefficients (2.0; 0.5)

...ensuring that every team can reach the highest and the lowest fan's mood during the season.

Besides the last sentence and the exact numbers I can not see how this is not happening today (and I guess you forgot number of fans in the club). Can you explain where the first part is not like that today?

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.93) as reply to (12313243.86)
To: Julen 26.12.2008 at 14:30
One thing might not work well is the -10% fans lose.

That certainly doesn't work well, as fan-wise, it seems to be better to remain as 1st in a lower division for 2 seasons than promoting to a higher division and then demoting because the league was too competitive. The 10% loss for demoting is bigger than the 10% increase for promoting because the fan base is larger, which leaves you in a worse position (smaller fan base) than if you had decided to stay in the lower division for one more season winning all matches. It doesn't make much sense imho.

The 10% win and loss upon promotion or demotion is a bit problematic with the new system.

You should manage your promotion and relegation strategies in this game. It was like that before the change in fan system and it is still like that. It always was important to promote when you are ready to face the competition in the league above you and not waste all your resources to survive as it is pointless on the long term. There were always teams failing to do that and I believe it is one of the biggest challenges in this game for the competitive team.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.98) as reply to (12313243.96)
To: Julen 26.12.2008 at 14:46
I was looking at my case, as i just promoted to a new league, and i have the feeling that if i was to demote right now, promoting the previous year would have been a bad idea. I'm not doing bad and hope not to demote, so it's not really a problem to me, but it does point out that the penalisation is a bit harsh if you want to encourage people to be competitive and promote (and avoid money hoarding). But looking at the number of fans that i have (i am 3rd, the expectations is "We will have to fight to stay up"), and if i was to demote, the fan base hasn't increased enough (5.7%) to make promotion a positive move in the whole. I should have remained for one more season (or more) in the lower division, waiting for the fans to become extremely demanding and then promote.

And you find it not good if you actually should remain low additional season?

Did your fans club increase by 5.7% since promotion? What do you expect after demotion it would be? What was it expected to be if you were still playing in the lower level successfully?

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectations)
From: flameron (12313243.172) as reply to (12313243.165)
To: antistar 27.12.2008 at 20:30
So you think that if you win 11 games in a row, lose one, then win the title, the fans should be less happy than they were at the start of the season?

You think that isn't retarded?

No. They already understood you are going to win the title and were happy about that. Then you lose a game and they are less happy, as such success made them expect you will not have such loses. The start of the season happiness was a factor of the games before that.

The logic of the system is well defined. I agree one can present any situation as if its not logical, but another one can present the same situation as perfectly logical. Even real life fans behave in a way many will percieve as not logical, but my bet is the fans will be happy to explain their behavior.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan formula)
From: HT-Tjecken (12628944.43) as reply to (12628944.1)
To: JP_Montoya 09.03.2009 at 16:37
When the HTs and flameron will fix the bug with the crowd. Come on, 37k people with sunny weather against the leader in a 2nd league game. I thought that the away fans have not that much impact anymore?

I'll rename this thread, just because there is no bug in the crowd formula. You could of course argue that you wish it would work in another way, but that doesn't mean it's a bug. The away fans still have an impact on the attendance, something they naturally should have in our opinion, but the impact is far from as huge as it was in the old days.

Beside the saison expectation is a completely joke. The mood of fans is still changing from game to game like before.

Of course the fans mood could be changed from game to game, why shouldn't it? The fans react on the result of each match, well they rather react on how well the result matched their expactation, and this can naturally change their mood. I would find it extremely strange if fans didn't react on the match result...

And remember, match expectation is not the same thing as season expectation. The fans don't really react on the seasonal expectation, they just base their match expectation on the season expection (but not only, they also base it on how well you're doing in the series).

Of course I lost my last two games (very unlucky in the cup), but before I had 13 unbeaten games in a row. Where is the longterm brain of the fans? In my opionion the "new" (is not that new anymore) formula worse than before...

Well, you're of couorse entitled to have that opinion, but the fans were a lot more stupid and their mood did fluctuate a lot more in the past (and the crowd figures also depended a lot more on the away fans as well). No AI system will be perfect, and this goes for the current system as well. It's however a whole lot better than the old system and I have to say that it works pretty well generally. Just don't expect your fans to have a longterm brain. They don't, and they shouldn't have that either. You as a manager can plan long term and accept poor success on the short run (given it pays of in the end) - but your fans don't.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan formula)
From: flameron (12628944.78) as reply to (12628944.62)
To: Kniff 09.03.2009 at 20:29
I suggest that the first time each season one play below their expectation, they should ignore it.

Since we must keep balance that means that the first above expectation game is ignored as well. Can you imagine the number of threads complaining on that?

For example I won my first four games in league and lost the fifth but my fans immediately drop two visible levels.

So you want to enjoy not only 4 weeks of good mood but also another one? You got 4 weeks of good mood and now when you lose you get a bit worse mood.

Fans mood is short term. Expectations are built on long term perspective. By this you do pay for short term performance but on the long term your fans are much more tolerant to failures if you are expected to be low. I understand why users fail to understand bad mood after a loss when they overall exceed fans expectations from the season, but fans mood is not about your position compared to the season expectations, its about your last results while a bit better if you are expected to be low and a bit lower if you are expected to be high.

I totally understand that there is more options for fans logic, like you and other say. Your logic is more in line with "Fans mood should be taking expected position and current position into account and ignore last loss if I am still first while expected to be last". Well, this is logical but others will say that its not logical fans are sending love poems after losing two games in a row just because you are 5 places above the expected position. In any case the whole system will need a restructure if this was the new way fans work as such system will in general give more income to teams on top of the league and less to teams at the last places.

There are many ways to define "logical" fans reaction (I must say I fail to understand many fans reactions in real life as well) but none will be accepted by all the users. I suggest users will try to find why the system is logical (and its not that hard if you want to, but I can help if you need help) instead of finding what is not logical. You could always find logical parts and not logical parts.

In any case, if you choose to look for the illogical parts try and think when the system give you more income then you deserve as well since the system must be kept balanced you must define where to lower income to make it optional to increase it in the cases you feel they should be higher. I think its quite common to see users claim they deserve more then less.

Keywords: (Fans)
From: flameron (12628944.108) as reply to (12628944.107)
To: -Nirk- 11.3.2009 at 07:50
-Nirk- wrote:

8:0 victory today and still delirious fans. Big bullshit for many seasons now!

Are you surprised fans of former top division team are not that impressed from a 3rd place in the 3rd division?

Anyway, I am in the same situation like you. After dominating my division for 2 seasons my fans are already better and if I will not finish among the first places (as it seems now I will be 3-5) it will be even better for the next season. You dropped (on purpose if I recall correctly) two divisions making a lot of wealth in the process so its only fair that you lose some money now in return.

I think there is a small issue to fix regarding how fans join and leave in such a case though.

To sum it up, dropping on purpose 2 divisions create wealth (due to not competing and paying salaries and getting sponsor money). There is no justice in not penalizing it in any way (and actually this is not enough to my humble opinion). I am sure managers like you hate this measure but that's totally understandable.

Keywords: (Fans)
From: flameron (12628944.110) as reply to (12628944.109)
To: SkyfireX 11.3.2009 at 07:57
SkyfireX wrote:

I got a suggestion:

How about adding in some sort of text that explains to people why their fan mood is so high or so low?

So that people will also know how to fix their fan mood if it's possible.

Help within the game is a concept I like very much. When (or if) and how it will be added I can not know now.

Keywords: (Fans)
From: flameron (12628944.117) as reply to (12628944.115)
To: -Nirk- 11.3.2009 at 12:47
-Nirk- wrote:

'You really offended me now :-(

I did not mean to in any way. I recalled you claimed to want to change strategy back then and not to the fact you dropped due to weaker team with no ability to even compete in the second division. Maybe I do not recall correctly, but by no mean tried to offend you.

As far as I see it (and will be happy to hear if I am mistaken) there are only two cases in which you drop two leagues in a row to compete in the top of the third later.

The first is to do it on purpose. As I said this method is too profitable anyway so some negative side effects on fans are good.

The second is by competing too hard on the top burning your wealth to a degree in which when you need to replace players you are unable to do so. Then you demote two divisions till you are able to buy the new players you need.

I see no problem with mistakes at the top being penalized more heavily then in the low division level. I 100% understand no manager that burned his cash to outperform his rivals in the top will be happy from the situation though. Still after several seasons in the low league (2-3 seasons) you are in the same situation like a team that dominate such division for 3-4 seasons. It seems like a fair situation.

I have some minor tweaks to the system in certain areas, but by no mean I see big flaws in it.

If I still did not understand what your team experience then you might explain again why you have demoted two divisions so fast.

Keywords: (Fans)
From: flameron (12628944.119) as reply to (12628944.118)
To: Darth_Hansen 11.3.2009 at 13:07
Darth_Hansen wrote:

there is certainly something broken at the top league levels, though, any which way you care to look at it. this season, my fans are incapable of being happier than 'high on life' despite the fact that I won the double last season and have won all (domestic) games this season so far as well.

next season, I presume they will max out at delirious? what exactly am I supposed to do? promote to div minus 1?

You can not do anything. The idea is that you dominate your division for a long time and the forces on you are different then other managers face. The forces each manager face are different anyway. Seniority for instance always play role. Past success play role for all the users. Winning the same top division is mainly a phenomena of small countries unless overspending is being used (not to mention overspending is optional in small countries as well). The mechanism therefore is fair both in small and big countries. In big countries it decrease the time span you can pull it off. In small countries it balanced somewhat the fact that a good rival will appear more rarely which might give you an option to dominate without spending --> accumulate a lot of wealth in the process, so the fans work to decrease this advantage.

Overall it becomes harder and harder (although to a very small degree) to dominate a top division the longer you do that. Is it bad? Don't forget dominating is an advantage by its own (economically wise), so is it unfair?

Keywords: (Fans)
From: flameron (12628944.127) as reply to (12628944.126)
To: -Nirk- 11.3.2009 at 13:43
-Nirk- wrote:

Ok, I'll tell it again (did it 3 seasons ago).

I was bored from Bundesliga training general most of the time and having team with old players and low costs. There was enough money left to go on playing that way. But I needed a change and I had an idea - perhaps a stupid idea ;-)

I sold my midfielders (and some defenders) to buy some young defenders with a little bit playmaking (passable/solid) to train them in playmaking. In the moment I decided it, I hoped to go down only to second division but most recently it would be third division.

I did this change some weeks before the new fansystem was introduced. Could not guess that it will be so harsh to my strategy.

Since then I played many matches with really huge defense ratings. But it was impossible to stop 3 strikers (and one or two wingers) in Bundesliga. I never hoped so. In league II my team got 16 points, I think a really good result, but 7th position at the end.

Last season I got 29 points in league III. Third place only 2 points behind the first. Trainees are still on a good way but possible midfield ratings are not really impressing for other teams of league III right now - in particular playing away.

If you take a look to the results in my last 3 seasons you will find some really high defeats for a really strong defense. Every single goal I could find in my fan mood. Really hard to accept.

But I decided not to "cry" to much about it, I tried to explain the problem in first season after the change with the fans.

I definitely lost much money during these seasons although my players earned only between 300k and 360k Euro a week. In first season I traded a little bit to work against these losses, as I remember I took home around 4 Mio Euro. But I get bored of it and concentrated more on the youth academy. I sold players from youth academy for around 7 Mio Euro since it was introduced. So where is all my money now? Do you really think I made huge wealth? ;-) I've got 6,9 Mio Euro now and I need a keeper soon. Nothing like wealth I think!

If I sold all players but my trainees my financial situation would be much better now - for sure!

Ok. Btw, I did a similar thing but kept a lot of my midfield power and had a lot of wealth which I kept as well (partly because I sold some good players and did not need others to compete in the second division).

You did not talk about how much money you had and what was your alternative. If you chose a bad long / short term strategy in team performance wise I see no problem. It seems you mostly talk hear about game design issues related to the match engine and not the fan system itself. When you chose going defensive you knew HT very well. Maybe it is true that a defensive approach do not work very well, but so is extreme midfield or scoring approach. Maybe the level in which it works is much lower. All of that are match engine issues. The fans system is a separate system motivates and rewards good performance. It is maybe penalizing defensive teams more which is not helping the match engine issue you raise. That's an argument I know for a long time and agree with to a certain degree. It has nothing to do with dropping 2 leagues (again - 1. on purpose to build long term good team which should have a price short term or 2. by burning all your cash or too much of it leaving you no choice or 3. by choosing bad team structure which should be penalized as well since this is the fans system purpose).

I did not succeed to isolate from your post why fans reaction to your team is not good for the game design. I do agree dropping without competing at all is too powerful compared to dropping while trying to compete. Thats not good from game design issue, but teams at this situation had to overspend before if they keep dropping division after division.

Keywords: (Fans)
From: flameron (12628944.139) as reply to (12628944.134)
To: Schnuff 11.3.2009 at 16:12
Schnuff wrote:

One of the strangest effects of the fan system is due to the simple fact, that you have an home match after an away match. Assume, you win all home matches, but you lose all away matches, then your average fan mood before an home match is quite low. But if you manage to win the away matches by picing all home matches and losing them, your fan mood will be significantly higher for the home matches and your income is much higher, despite having reached the same points overall and against every single opponent. It plays quite a big role, which matches you win, not the overall result you achieve. If you win half of the matches and lose the other half, your income over the whole season should be roughly the same, no matter how the wins and losses are distributed. Of course it is harder to win the away matches, but the number of points is what matters in the end...

This is true to a small degree maybe but you forget it is much harder to win away. There is no point in raising hypothetical thing which is answered by another game part or which is not actually possible or worthwhile.

Keywords: (Fans)
From: flameron (12628944.144) as reply to (12628944.143)
To: EgonEgal 11.3.2009 at 23:12
EgonEgal wrote:

So I am afraid the intention of the fan system is very good, but the implementation has room for improvements.

I agree. I do not believe in perfection. I believe in trying to achieve it but do not believe it is achievable (so there is always room for more thinking but not always to more changes).

I agree in general that the fans system and the sponsor money system should be both improved that teams who drop without competing will earn less then today and teams which drop while competing will earn more. Assuming this is what Nirk experienced I agree with it in general.

Keywords: (Fans), (Fan expectation)
From: flameron (12628944.147) as reply to (12628944.145)
To: Karl-Heinz-Spock 12.03.2009 at 06:30
As we are talking about room for improvements, apart from what Mjoelnir wrote in (12628944.140), what about making expectations for cup-matches depending (or more depending) on age, size and saturation of a national league? Playing on away-ground, say as a dic-III-Team against a div-VI-team is quite different in different countries, and afaik* in big- old countries a huge percentage of teams going out of cup had a rather high fan-expectation before.

Well, it is taken into consideration today. The fans expectations in matches between div I and div IV in Sweden and in South Africa are not the same. We use the number of leagues in a country and even though its not totally evening things it is the best simple measure to be used. Its not a dramatic change if a country has 7 or 8 leagues so small differences are not critical, but there is huge differences between countries with 4 or 8 division levels.

The main difference is in the lowest divisions. This means a 4th division in a 4 division level country behaves the same as a 8th division team in a 8 divisions level country.