HTs on Global/HT-Mail

From Hattrick

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.1 as reply to ???
To: Everyone 29.9.2008 at 10:13
On Wednesday we will open our new mail system, which (as mentioned in the MyHT message) includes a lot of nice new features, both for you who're Supporters and for you who're regular users. Now, it will take until tomorrow/Wednesday until you actually get to see all the goodies, but that hasn't stopped you from saying what you think in the past. So, how does this sound? :)

If you got any questions, just shout them out loud (or not that loud)!

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.12 as reply to 11933109.7
To: anvill72 29.9.2008 at 11:22
Sounds like some long-overdue stuff is finally being implemented.

Should be good when it's back. Can we have spam filters???

There will be a spam tool, but there are some administrational thingies aorund that tool which have to be solved first. So, it will not be released on Wednesday, but it will not take that long...

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.17 as reply to 11933109.11
To: DrKeps 29.9.2008 at 11:39
Will it be possible to delete sent messages now also..? :)

Nope, it will start behaving as a "normal" mail. Mails are deleted individually by sender and recipient, so you will not be able to delete your mail from your recipient's mailbox.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.21 as reply to 11933109.14
To: Ratsia 29.9.2008 at 11:58
"Write longer mails (up to 1000 characters)"

Non-supporters still receive the full mail, right?

Yes.

"Create and edit folders (where you can archive mails in all eternity)"

Does this mean there is a risk a mail is lost if we do not move it into a separate folder but instead just keep it in the inbox?

Yes, in that sense it will be difference than today. So, if you don't move them to a custom folder they will be deleted after 90 days (just like in the current mail system).

Finally, how exactly are the characters counted? Will the HT-ml tags be counted as they are, meaning that the actual content gets much less space if you use long tags or are they "free"? Is the counting based on characters visible for the user, or based on the size of the message (i.e. the length is 500/1000 bytes, not characters)?

It's based on the characters visible for the user as far as I know. The "bold" tag, for example, is three characters long.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.24 as reply to 11933109.22
To: BOT-Pirao 29.9.2008 at 12:09
actually, it's 7 characters long ;)

Well, I didn't count the end-bold tag. :)

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.34 as reply to 11933109.27
To: DrKeps 29.9.2008 at 13:50
Yes, this was exaclty what I meant...

I send someone a message, then that person reads it...

Then I would like to have the option of deleting it, while it still stays in the recipents mailbox...

This is the case in every other mail-system, so I don't know why it shouldn't be like this here also..?

The message would be fully deleted from the system when both sender and reciepent marked the mail as deleted...

Meanwhile it would be visible for the other part of the conversation...

That's the way it will be in the new system. You can delete your mail from the send box and the recipient will still be able to do whatever he wants to do with his "copy".

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.83 as reply to 11933109.79
To: Everyone 30.9.2008 at 16:22
I direct this to all, as it's rather meant as a common reply on our motives.

My real belief is that they simply never even thought about it much. They just want to be able to release new features so that supporters have some extra, and they didn't even think about which of the things make sense as supporter features and which don't.

We've always said that Supporter will not give you any in-game advantages, but it's designed to make your Hattrick life easier and give you a better gaming experience.

One could of course argue about that something fits better than other stuff in the Supporter package, but our main point is that all basics should be available for all and it should always be perfectly possible to play and compete for free. One can of course argue about if a character limit (for example)should be a basic or not. In our opinion, the basics is that it exists a mailing service. All users should be able to contact each other in a simple and fast way ( it's not really designed to be a e-mail service like gmail or similar).

About the character limitation, naturally it's also about storage (and it does make sense to allow supporters more "storage" in our opinion) and not only to simplify the life for our Supporters. Now, I'm not suggesting that we have a storage problem right now, but at some point it will become a problem if we don't hold our horses. Perhaps we will further increase the character limit (both for non-supporters and supporters) in the future, but we take baby steps to be on the safe side.

I know many other sites/companies have chosen to give better and faster support for paying customers, and just have a very limited service for non-paying customers. That is something which will never happen in Hattrick, we don't believe in having a shitty support level for people when they actually use the site as it's designed. But at the same time: We need some income to keep this site alive and a restult on that we need to provide an attractive service which actually also makes life easier (and deepen the game experience). We don't want to rely totally only on ads ( and we're no fans of banners as I think you know/see) and we don't want to rely only on people's wellfare.

In other words, Supporters will always get some extra stuff and Supporter will also make your Hattrick life more comfortable. This doesn't mean we will make something deliberately annoying for non-supporters (how silly isn't that?), we will always aim on providing a good basic functionality. We will also always listen just as much to our non-supporters as our Supporters, and as mentioned above there is no difference in the support we will give our users. We just don't make such differencies between users. But (at least for now), non-supporters will only be able to write just as long mails as they've always been able to.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.86 as reply to 11933109.84
To: MrJuvet 30.9.2008 at 16:35
Hey, what about our Press Announcement, it will have 1000 character, too?

No. At least not now, can't speak for any future decision.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.95 as reply to 11933109.89
To: Ratsia 30.9.2008 at 17:52
but for example the strict decision to not limit the quality of support was news to me (and quite likely to many others as well)

I guess we haven't found it necessary to spell out such policies in our past, and to some extent we haven't really thought about them either. We've just done things we've believed in (and refrained from doing things we don't believe in or things which go against our ethics). But as the game (and the company as a result) has grown bigger, we also see a need to spell all this out. New staff etc will not have a clue otherwise...

Anyway, if you talk about core values etc we've always tried to be humane (and personal). This is game/site made by humans for humans, and we also applaude humanbehaviour. As such a site, we cant' be unhumane (and as a matter of fact, we (personally) wouldn't bear such an approach). For example, we've many times got wishes for a special fast server for Supporters (allthough, it was a more common wish some years ago as the servers work very fine today), but it's never been an option for us. It's simply not an option for us to treat people differently. It's just the same with other parts relative to quality of service.

To be honest, we're not that much of the business kind. We're more like the average Joe. We did things which we believed in and felt was right according to our ideals, we didn't make a business plan or so. And that still holds, I can't even imagine us asking our voluntary workers to "treat Supporters extra nice" for example. That would be a disgrace.

Like you said, the service should be attractive and it should be quite a lot more so if it was defined a bit more clearly instead of just "it will give you some extra stuff". To me it seems the package is relatively well defined, but not explicitly.

That sounds very business to me.... ;)

We need to re-define our definition of the Supporter package due to the integration of Alltid. But in short the general guideline for a Supporter feature is that:

  • It should provide a value to the customer (either by making his/her life Hattrick life easier, adding extra value to a basic feature or adding a feature as a whole in order to deepen the game experience)
  • It should not give the user any ingame advantages
  • It should not be "the correct basic interface" (making a bad common interface and a good interface for Supporters), but it can be an improved good basic interface.

We also allow ourselves to use our gut feeling. We're humans after all. I don't know if this will satisfy your curiosity, but if you got any specific questions I'll try to answer as good as I can.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.101 as reply to 11933109.97
To: Ratsia 30.9.2008 at 20:29
The same, btw, applies for the gray faces in the new design. Previously supporters got a brand new feature of having faces, whereas now you will be showing downgraded faces for non-supporters.

The main reason for showing silhouettes for non-supporters is actually because the page would look really strange without.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Johan 11933109.102 as reply to 11933109.97
To: Ratsia 30.9.2008 at 20:33
All earlier supporter features add a full feature, not just extend an existing one. You do not have things like "Non-supporters can have 15 shirt numbers while supporters can have 99" or "Non-supporters can only have 5 bookmarks". It's always so that supporters get a full feature that does not exist in any way for the rest.

This is probably why the current "supporters get longer messages" is so confusing for some users.

We do on the other hand have a history of slowly upping restrictions for Supporters when we feel there is space for it. We have done that with Fed slots, bookmarks, and now we do it with the character limit. It´s simply a way to let Suppoters feel they get a little extra from the site, from stuff that does not give you an advantage in playing the game.

BTW, since someone was getting worked up about it, I agree community is a core element of Hattick, but it is not a core element of the game itself. Feds are pure community and they are a great Supporter feature, so we have always considered community-enhancing things fair game for Supporter. I can´t really see why a modest upgrade to Supporters mail limits unbalances that.

As for "Mark as Unread", well, I guess that could have gone either way.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Johan 11933109.106 as reply to 11933109.103
To: gucan 30.9.2008 at 21:08
Do you think the number of fed slots is sufficient right now? I would like to have another one or two and I'm not alone in this... :)

It´s possible, of course. No plans yet, though, but Feds overall is ripe fo some improvements I think.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.110 as reply to 11933109.107
To: Half-Assed-Ness 30.9.2008 at 21:29
It's a huge difference between providing the same level of customer/service support for everyone and giving the supporters a little bit extra value for things which don't give them any advantage/favor, don't you think?

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Johan 11933109.118 as reply to 11933109.116
To: Half-Assed-Ness 30.9.2008 at 22:55
This is what was included in Hattrick Suppoter at the launch in 2001:

Season 13 (May 27 2001)

Hattrick Supporter is released, a premium service which later turns out to be what made Hattrick survive and continued being developed. For 15 SEK (around 15 kr) a month you get a buddy list, some personal statistics and live info in the ticker. Maybe more importantly Supporter was also a good way to support the game. Two months later Supporter is expanded with match kits, prize shelf, press announcements, logos, federations and more statistics.

News ticker, press announcements, federations... soon to be followed by guestbooks. Communication tools have always been a part of Supporter, at the heart of it actually.

I just can´t comprehend what you are talking about when you say that "a line has been crossed" because Supporters now get a few more characters to play with in their mails. They are not likely to win games from that.

As it happens, Supporter was my idea even though the concept has always been warmly embraced by everyone in the HT team. We must have had to defend a thousand times the idea of giving everything that matters in a game away for free and just "selling" the cute symbolic stuff. Today maybe it seems like an obvious thing to do, but it surely did not in 2001. You are basically saying we should just give up on that now, because Hattrick is a game that is all about sending the longest possible internal message to each other. Get some pespective, please.

EDIT: Maybe that is to much to ask for, considering you actually started playing the game some 5 years after Supporter was launched.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.147 as reply to 11933109.145
To: Astrero 1.10.2008 at 15:18
on the past ht mail system, i can see if the ht-mail was read or not

on this version, how can i check that ???

You can't unfortunately. In the old system that was a little side feature as there were only one mail (which also, if deleted by the sender couldn't be read by the recipient). Now it works more like a normal mail service, but you can't see if it's read or not.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.160 as reply to 11933109.155
To: saverio- 1.10.2008 at 15:41
when I receive a new Htmail I haven't the red number (1) near "Mailbox", is it a feature or a bug? :-)

Old "feature". As the left menu is a frame, it doesn't get reloaded when you open a new page. If you reload your menu the red number should be visible though.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.371 as reply to 11933109.370
To: Everyone 6.10.2008 at 16:10
The old feature of being able to see when someone has read your mail is now back again.

And in tomorrow's code release (around 12ish) the red number in the menu showing how many unread msgs you got will be back again.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.375 as reply to 11933109.374
To: MD-JakobTrier 6.10.2008 at 16:17
Nice. Do you plan to release new updates to Hattrick.org at the Stage server prior to launching it at the many servers used by all users in order to ensure more bug free code or will you continue to release code directly onto the production servers without testing on the stage server?

All new updates etc are always released and tested on Stage before they hit all "live" servers. The new mail system was no exception.

That said, there is of course still room for improvement.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.378 as reply to 11933109.376
To: -RedBaron- 6.10.2008 at 16:35
good news :)

just a question related to the news box at the top frame. will it possible in the next release to klick more than once on a new message without getting a error message that the mail has not been found or something this way? as it has been in the past?

You mean the ticker, right? That if you've read a mail the link in the ticker to that mail can't be used?

We hope to have that ready for tomorrow's release too, but I can't guarantee that to 100%. But if not, it will be ready for a release not that long into the future.

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.474 as reply to 11933109.460
To: LA-AmonRaZZ 7.10.2008 at 17:40
All new updates etc are always released and tested on Stage before they hit all "live" servers. The new mail system was no exception.

--- Why is then released with such a visible bug (the message counter)?

Bugs happen, they are always annoying but they do happen... and smallish things will always get by unnoticed. The question is why a quite visible bug still happened with gazillions of beta testers eyes on it? That's a good question, and I can't say that I have got the answer to that question. Perhaps it was seen as "too obvious" that it always should be there and work as it always had? At least something for us all to learn from this (even though we've taken that class before I think...).

Anyway, after some checking it seems there are two reasons for why the red counter doesn't work as before. First, it was written in what we in Sweden would say is "fulkod" (ugly code=it does what it should do, but it's not really correct to do it that way). For example, it didn't really check how many messages you had except for the first time - instead it just counted -1 every time you read a mail. :) Secondly, that piece of code only works in asp (and not in asp.net).

In the new design, this will be treated so much better. But we'll see if we can work something out which does the trick until then. :)

Keywords: (new HT-Mail system)

By: HT-Tjecken 11933109.489 as reply to 11933109.488
To: Everyone 9.10.2008 at 11:23
All different counters should be working now (or in any minute, we're releasing code right now). The counter will actually work much better than before, but then again I guess you will not really notice that.

Yadayada, it works. Sorry for all the trouble with it.